mirror pond facsimile

My wife wants me to brew something like Mirror Pond. Anybody have the actual recipe?  I did a google search and found many differing recipes. After tasting a fresh example I put together the recipe below. Any Thoughts? Maybe to much Munich?

Method: All Grain
Style: American Pale Ale
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 6 gallons (ending kettle volume)
Boil Size: 7.5 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.041 (recipe based estimate)
Efficiency: 60% (ending kettle)
Source: mixed

Original Gravity:
1.051
Final Gravity:
1.012
ABV (standard):
5.11%
IBU (tinseth):
40.83
SRM (morey):
8.38
Fermentables
Amount Fermentable PPG °L Bill %
11 lb American - Pale 2-Row 37 1.8 79.3%
2 lb German - Munich Dark 37 15.5 14.4%
6 oz American - Caramel / Crystal 60L 34 60 2.7%
0.5 lb American - Carapils (Dextrine Malt) 33 1.8 3.6%
13.88 lb Total    
Hops
Amount Variety Type AA Use Time IBU
1 oz Cascade Pellet 7 Boil 60 min 24.08
1 oz Cascade Pellet 7 Boil 15 min 11.95
1 oz Cascade Pellet 7 Boil 5 min 4.8
2 oz Cascade Pellet 7 Boil 0 min
1.25 oz Cascade Pellet 7 Dry Hop 7 days

I’d got for Munich in the 10L range.  Otherwise pretty good.

I think I will scale back the Munich a bit, I don’t know what the SRM should be for this beer.

CYBI/Jamil Show did mirror pond years ago. Don’t know if it’s any good, just remember seeing the show.

Clones I have seen are a 90 minute boil with the bittering addition with 85 minutes remaining.

I wonder why? I always assume long boils are for DMS reduction. Is it for caramelization?

This is the recipe from the CYBI show, and I believe they labeled it successful.

Boil Size: 7.77 gal
Post Boil Volume: 7.02 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 6.00 gal 
Bottling Volume: 5.60 gal
Estimated OG: 1.055 SG
Estimated Color: 9.8 SRM
Estimated IBU: 33.6 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 78.7 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:

Amt                  Name                                    Type          #        %/IBU       
11 lbs 9.0 oz        Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM)        Grain        1        91.5 %       
14.0 oz              Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM)    Grain        2        6.9 %       
3.2 oz                Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM)            Grain        3        1.6 %       
1.00 oz              Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 85.0 min        Hop          4        20.1 IBUs   
1.00 oz              Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 30.0 min        Hop          5        10.2 IBUs   
1.00 oz              Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min          Hop          6        3.3 IBUs     
1.00 oz              Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 0.0 min          Hop          7        0.0 IBUs     
1.0 pkg              English Ale (White Labs #WLP002) [2000.0 Yeast        8        -           
1.00 oz              Cascade [5.50 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days      Hop          9        0.0 IBUs

Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 12 lbs 10.1 oz

Name              Description                            Step Temperat Step Time   
Mash In          Add 22.11 qt of water at 155.9 F        148.0 F      75 min

Sparge: Batch sparge with 1 steps (4.01gal) of 168.0 F water
Notes:

^That is the one I have seen.

I have been wanting to brew it for some time but never got around to it.

Munich is shown on Deschutes website so I would probably sub in a pound or so in place of the pale malt.

That doesn’t really matter.

You cannot caramelize wort in a kettle. It doesn’t get hot enough.

Definitely needs around 15-20% Munich.

It may not matter at all. That is what I have seen. They say a 90 minute boil on their website as well.

From a BYO article “Wort Boiling:Homebrew Science”

“Color development
Color pick-up in the kettle is a combination of several factors. The caramelization of wort sugars darkens the wort as it boils. Loss of an H2O molecule from the complex sugar molecule forms a double bond inside the sugar molecule, which changes the way the sugar molecule absorbs light, thereby affecting the color.  Drive off all water  and you’re left with carbon.”

This is from a 2002 article. It does not say much about it. My personal experience is that caramelization is only noticeable if you boil most of the water out of the wort. But the article seems to say that it happens during a normal boil.  Wort Boiling Science - Brew Your Own

Well, they’re free to publish what they want to…physics says that you need temps in excess of 360F to get caramelization and AFAIK you can’t get that in a kettle of liquid.  The color changes are due to the Maillard reaction, the same reaction that produces caramelization.

It was my understanding that Maillard and caramelization reactions are different.  Maillard requires amino acids and reducing sugars, and caramelization only sugar.  Fructose will caramelize at 110c, other sugars at higher temps.

I agree that true caramelization won’t happen in a long boil, but I don’t think anybody would argue that more Maillard-type deep flavors can come from a 90 minute (or longer) boil. Scottish ales come to mind.

[quote
Well, they’re free to publish what they want to…physics says that you need temps in excess of 360F to get caramelization and AFAIK you can’t get that in a kettle of liquid.  The color changes are due to the Maillard reaction, the same reaction that produces caramelization.

[/quote]

Good Info to know, thanks.

Good Info to know, thanks.

[/quote]

But it’s not true.  Caramelization - Wikipedia

I’m not saying caramelization does occur during the boil, I’m just saying that the caramelization reaction is different from the maillard reaction, and can occur at lower temperatures than that quoted by Denny.  The reaction is also sensitive to pH and the presence of “impurities”, so I wouldn’t rule it out.

But it’s not true.  Caramelization - Wikipedia

I’m not saying caramelization does occur during the boil, I’m just saying that the caramelization reaction is different from the maillard reaction, and can occur at lower temperatures than that quoted by Denny.  The reaction is also sensitive to pH and the presence of “impurities”, so I wouldn’t rule it out.

[/quote]

Your link says sucrose caramelizes at 320 and maltose around 360.

Your link says sucrose caramelizes at 320 and maltose around 360.

[/quote]

The main point I was trying to make was that Caramelization reaction is not a Maillard reaction.  I agree that for the most part, you’re not going to get caramelization going on in the boil for most worts, but do you not think that it’s a possibility for people using brewers invert?