Total, not residual.
I tried punching in 200ppm alkalinity into Bru’n water. That gave me 241ppm of bicarbonates. With 50ppm of calcium, for a mash with 11lbs of malt, it would take 2.2lbs of carafa II (450*L) to get a mash pH of 5.7. The estimated SRM for that is 57.1. It would take 2.75lbs of carafa II to get down to 5.4, at which point the estimated SRM is 66.3. At that point, the roasted malt is 20% of your grist. Is anyone using that much roasted grain in their beer?
I’m just having a hard time thinking of a real-life situation where having 200-300ppm of total alkalinity is actually desirable.
I guess my expectations tend to be a little high, but, if I’m buying a beer book, I do expect the information to be well-researched, well-reviewed by experts/peers, well-edited, and contribute further to the body of knowledge that is already out there. I’ve been disappointed in the last two BA books I’ve purchased (Yeast and Brewing Better Beer). Bamforth, Lewis, Daniels, and Mosher come to mind as good writers who have put out good books which reflect the collective effort put into them by the author(s), researchers, and editors. I don’t want to read another “dogmatic” or “conversationalistic” beer book. I read those kinds of books once and it is unlikely I’ll ever pick them up again.
In fact, I’d love to read a “brewing water” book written by a bunch of authors (Martin, A.J., JP, as well as a panel of various pro brewers)–perhaps a format where each chapter is written by one or more authors and then followed by several pages of a “Q/A” or “Panel Responses” where expert contributors are allowed to give well-researched replies (or rebuttals), or to support and defend their varying viewpoints. Ultimately, the reader would be able to formulate their own conclusions.
I think we’re in danger of splitting hairs here, but 200-300 ppm TA and 50-100 ppm Ca correspond to an RA range of 129-264 ppm CaCO3. 264 is a little higher than I’d go, but not outrageous, and would probably produce an acceptable mash pH in a stout or porter.
On the whole (and not having read the article yet), I’d say I agree with your quote.
I would buy that book in a heartbeat. Having a breadth of information from many sources is one of the reasons I still reference Designing Great Beers even though it’s pretty old. I enjoyed it overall, but Yeast had a few head-scratchers, like their use of the term “doubling” (which has an established definition in biology) when they meant multiplication. I would’ve liked a bit better reference section too. It didn’t need to be a technical book, but some footnotes and annotated references would’ve been nice.
I’m trying very hard to reserve judgment, but from the article in Zymurgy, I’m skeptical about Palmer’s grasp on practical brewing water issues for average homebrewers.
How are you figuring the RA? Am I doing this correctly?
This is the equation I have: [RA = Alkalinity (ppm as CaCO3) - 0.714 x Ca (ppm) - 0.585 x Mg (ppm)]
Assuming 50ppm Ca, 5ppm Mg, and 200ppm akalinity:
[200 - (0.71450) - (0.5855)] = 161.375
With 100ppm of Ca and 5ppm of Mg: [200 - (0.714100) - (0.5855)] = 125.675
I also improperly labeled my water figures earlier as “RA” when they were just alkalinity. I’ll go back and change those. My RA was actually a lot lower than what I posted first.
Comments on recent excerpt on Water book:
- Yes, this was chapter 1- Why a Book on Water, and only most of Chapter 1 at that, due to space limitations. They had wanted to use Chapter 4 or 5 which just weren’t ready yet, and if taken out of context would really have had you all confused. (well, angry actually, because it would have been the same old RA equation background. We hadn’t gotten to the new stuff yet.)
- Yes, I realize my linear color model is out of date. And I have been corresponding with Kai to understand his data, as well as working with Briess malting to get more data from them. We are trying to come up with a better model. But it’s tricky.
- I like the idea of multiple authors for the Water book, but it’s like herding cats.
- Do I have a grasp of the water needs of the average homebrewer? Yes, I would like to think so. We want to be able to competently brew any style of beer we set out minds to, and be confident about our brewing water/mash/beer chemistry when we do so. Right?
Do I have a grasp of the water needs for the average commercial brewer? No, but I have been working on it. They have a source water, and they have a portfolio of beers that they need to produce consistently. They have recipes that they have inherited from previous brewmasters. They have one water treatment system that has to serve everything. And, they have the requirements to dispose of their wastewater afterwards to meet local and state laws. It has been difficult to reconcile the various brewing texts with the wildly varying practices of key benchmark breweries - some beers don’t seem to fit the rules. Yes the books say 50 ppm calcium minimum for good brewing chemistry (based on pale lagers). Yes, I say that higher-colored beers need more alkalinity to balance their chemistry. There are a lot of different pieces to this puzzle, but they do somehow have to fit together into a big picture, and that is my mission in life - to figure this out. I welcome all help. - There is no point in writing a mediocre book - one that you folks on the forum would instantly say did not teach you anything new, or regurgitated what has been said before in other books. Same situation for the commercial brewer. For this book to work, it has to serve both audiences, and that is our goal.
Thanks for your time,
John
Thanks for chiming in John. Much appreciated and looking forward to the book. Good luck. It’s definitely not an easy topic to capture.
Mr. Palmer, thank you for taking the time to write a detailed response. I appreciate your feedback, and I’m sorry if I come off as a nit-picky jerk.
I have three requests:
- Please don’t tell anyone, or imply to anyone, that it’s OK to stick a pH meter in a hot mash.
- Could you tell me what you’re basing those specific alkalinity recommendations on?
- Could you please take your RA spreadsheet off the internet, or at least put a up a prominent warning.
I don’t think #3 is likely, but the first two are reasonable.
I’m not an expert. I’ve been brewing since 2004, and keeping detailed notes since about 2008. In my experience, 100% base malt beers need 0-50ppm alkalinity, beers with some crystal need maybe 50-80ppm, and the darkest beers I brew have never needed more than 125ppm alkalinity. Any alkalinity over those ranges and I need to supplement with acid to have a reasonable (<5.5) mash pH.
If you have really, really hard water (200+ppm) maybe higher alkalinity would be appropriate, but at that point, is that water really appropriate to brew with? All other things being equal, I’ve found every style to benefit from soft water.
I’m also willing to entertain the idea that I’m an idiot and have no idea what I’m talking about.
I don’t see where Palmer is advocating sticking a pH meter into a hot mash (sounds like he’s just describing optimal pH as measured at mash temperature). Was that mentioned somewhere else in the article?
My experience is that the spreadsheet actually works pretty well until (as Sean mentioned above) you get to really dark beers (for dark beers, I usually just mash the base malts and add the darker grains during the sparge - I’m not a fan of using chalk). I like to start with Palmer’s spreadsheet and then cross reference it against Kai’s for gypsum and calcium chloride additions.
I think this would be a disservice to homebrewers. I’m sure I’m not the only person who still finds it to be a useful tool (an update would be nice though).
When I first got interested in learning about water chemistry as applied to homebrewing, I found the relevant section of How to Brew very useful. Perhaps it isn’t reflective of some of the more recent thought on the subject, but I still think it’s a great resource. I guess we’ll have to wait to see whether the new book offers a more modern take on the subject.
How would you measure the mash pH at mash temperature, if not by measuring it with a pH meter? Why is the mash pH relevant at all if the meter is designed to be used at lower temps?
How are you evaluating that? Are you using a pH meter?
I’m not arguing for throwing the book away. I don’t have any particular problem with the water chapter either. It’s the consistent overestimation of required alkalinity that I have a problem with.
Like I said before, there are lots of novice brewers who dump a bunch of baking soda in their mash because the spreadsheet told them to. In brewing, baking soda is hardly ever the answer. If you search the forum archives for “Palmer’s spreadsheet” you’ll find I’m not the only person who had issues because I used his spreadsheet. IMO, on balance, Palmer’s RA spreadsheet has done more harm than good.
Like I said, maybe I’m an idiot and a jerk, but when I used Palmer’s spreadsheet, I made 3 of the worst beers I’ve ever made. When I used Kai’s and Martin’s spreadsheets, I made some of the best beers I’ve ever made. I guess it’s up to the brewer to decide what works for them.
In my opinion, pH at mash temperature is not irrelevant just because I’m measuring it at room temperature (and I can extrapolate one from the other). As long as someone is being clear about which temperature range they are talking about, I don’t see a problem.
Yes, I have a Milwaukee MW101. To be honest, I find the need to calibrate it before every brew session to be kind of annoying, but I think it’s a fairly accurate meter.
I hear you.
Agreed.
This is a respectful discussion; we’re all good.
Where does it say in the article to stick the pH meter into the mash? It just states the range where the mash works best at mash temps.
I think howtobrew is the place I first read about the correction factor, where the meter reading at room temperature is 0.25 to 0.3 higher than the actual pH in the mash.
Without reading the later chapters, what can you say about instructions on how to use a pH meter? There may be instructions on taking sample and cooling.
Yes, I don’t believe I have ever specifically told/advised people to measure the mash pH at mash temperature. In fact, my water presentations always describe how mash pH test strips are designed to work at room temp, so cool a wort sample to room temp and look for a range of 5.4-5.8 versus the recommended 5.1-5.5 range at mash temp. If you have a pH meter with ATC, you CAN measure at mash temp, but it will shorten your probe life.
Nateo - I don’t think you are a jerk at all. Don’t worry about it. Keep brewing brother.
No I am not going to pull the spreadsheet! Jeff is right, it has it’s flaws, but it is a good tool, and I will revise it. I probably should do a 3.1 and add some IF statements to guide people away from exceeding 200 ppm as CaCO3 RA, as I warn in my talks.
Oops, time to start making dinner…
Brew Strong,
John
Yes, that’s right. So for the ranges quoted (50-100 ppm Ca, 200-300 TA):
200 - 0.71100 = 129 ppm CaCO3 (RA)
300 - 0.7150 = 264 ppm CaCO3 (RA)
That would be fantastic.
On an unrelated note, are you going to be covering lime softening in your book? It’s something I learned from Kai and Martin. It’s a really cheap and effective way to reduce temporary hardness and alkalinity, but is unknown or poorly understood by most brewers I’ve talked to, both pro- and home-. There is a large chunk of the midwest that gets their water from limestone aquifers that could really benefit from lime softening.
Mr. Palmer, I’m still curious how/where you came up with the alkalinity ranges you give in your article. I’m sorry if I’m still skeptical, as I’ve never seen anyone else advocate alkalinity in those ranges.
From my empirical evidence, they seem much too high.
I looked through Briggs et. al. to try to find something in “the literature” and only found this: "Briggs, ch 3.6 - “Probably the concentration of bicarbonate ions in brewing liquor should never exceed 50 mg/l.” In AJ DeLange’s alkalinity presentations, he came to the same conclusion, “Alkalinity under 50 ppm as CaCO3 is generally considered desirable though many beers are brewed with water more alkaline than that.”
I’m not arguing alkalinity should never exceed 50ppm, I’m just trying to figure out how you arrived at your conclusion that 200-300ppm is appropriate.
To quote the article “If your brewery focuses on darker styles, a total alkilinity of 200-300ppm would not be INAPPROPIATE, but the taste of your beer must be your guide”
Now to me this means you could have alkilinity in this range and not ruin the beer. But you must decide by tasting the result. I don’t beleive that it in any way states this is the go to, standard, appropiate range for alkilinity.
Maybe check the title of the book again??? I think the actual specific chapters in the book will explain where these conclusions were drawn from. How to brew does this pretty well.
Keep questioning “authority”, thats how we all learn and grow. Maybe he’ll send you a signed copy to his most passionate detractor 
I’m trying not to be pedantic, or argue semantics, but the double-negative is confusing me. Saying something “is not inappropriate” sounds the same to me as saying it “is appropriate.” I’m trying to figure out if that statement is based on a review of literature, or his own experiments and observations, or someone else’s experiments or observations, or some other source.
If I said “200-300ppm of magnesium in beer is not inappropriate, though the taste of your beer should be your guide,” wouldn’t it be reasonable to question how I arrived at those numbers?
Now THAT’s dedication!
But I agree its the only way to even get in the ballpark - the water here in Indy can change dramatically from week to week (an AWESOME little problem to have when designing an industrial RO system).