Some ions only really affect mouthfeel and other flavor perceptions. If you want to know exactly how much of them you’re adding to the beer, they should go in the kettle. Otherwise some could be lost in the mash.
I often add gypsum to the kettle and not the mash. With my water, the pH for AIPA/APA arrives at the correct value without any mash additions. I want to add gypsum to accentuate the hops, but if I added it to the mash it would drop the pH too low. Adding it to the kettle avoids that.
Without looking at the spreadsheet (if someone pointed out where the spreadsheet is and which cells have the error, I would probably look at it), since alkalinity is usually reported as alkalinity as mg/l of CaCO3, I don’t see an error in the alkalinity number. Perhaps, the bicarbonate concentration is being reported as mg/l of CaCO3 too?
Good to know. I’ll get there one day.
Right now, I’m working on nailing the mash temps and the pH.
This forum really has helped open my eyes to some of the finer points of good homebrewing.
For example, Martin B. had a good point a few weeks ago about calibrating his thermometers at 150 F rather than 0 or 212 F.
It got me thinking: my last few beers have been too dry and light bodied.
Turns out one of my cheapo digital Taylor thermometers calibrates fine at 0 and 212 but reads 5+ degrees too high at 150 F.
The damn calibration dial doesn’t change it no matter how much I turn it counterclockwise. It is going to get replaced. Turns out the analog thermometer gauges were right, not the digital one.
Same thing for the pH and water adjustments with brew salt additions. I appreciate the wise counsel and explanations of those experts and brewing veterans who take the time to post replies on the forum.
Edit: Here’s Palmer’s spreadsheet
http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-3.html
Here is how you see the error. Add 100 mg CaCO3 to 1 l water. The expected alkalinity should be 100 ppm as CaCO3 but it is only 46
Kai
Looking at the US spreadsheet, the formula in cell E30 should be roughly (C27322 + G27363)/C23. In other words, the factors for converting chalk and baking soda to bicarb are both wrong. Correcting E30 should result in L30 giving the proper result.
Edit: corrected cell refs
The “corrected” equation assumes that the chalk and baking soda fully dissolve. However, Kai points out earlier that the chalk does not fully dissolve and thus the original factor of 158.4 rather than 322 might not be wrong as an empiricism. However, it is unclear why the discrepancy for the baking soda factor. Baking soda dissolves well; the solubility of baking soda is 100 g/l at 20 C vs. .015 g/l for chalk at 25 C per wikipedia.
Interesting findings.
I haven’t used Palmer’s spreadsheet but was considering it. I want to take a better look at my water and purchase a pH meter intead of using strips. I’ve also considered using Kai’s spreadsheet but never found enough time to actually do it.
Gordon points out a very important issue. Once one’s water has been adjusted it should be qualified to determine the actual composition at that point. In an effort to target a specific water profile it is necessary to verify the actual profile and any adjustments that have been made. If this isn’t done the water profile is assumed to be adjusted based on calculated additions.
Determining the actual water chemistry must be qualified in a lab which can be costly but is necessary in order to have confidence in any adjustments that have been made.
I use the EZ water spreadsheet because it’s, well, easy. And I’ve found it to be somewhat accurate and I’ve applied my trial and error experience to it (and continue to refine that) to figure out what additions I need to make. I’ve been moderately successful getting into the range I’m looking for and I feel that I can zero that in given more practice.
Kai - I’ve tried using your spreadsheet and it’s just not intuitive to me. I just tried it again as a matter of fact to see if I could figure out the water treatment for my next brew. Where I run into an issue is I don’t want to define each salt addition as ppm. That doesn’t mean much to me. I want to enter the grams of salts and see what the ppm will be in my given volume and then tweak the additions to get to where I need to be. Maybe I’m missing something in the functionality and if so I’d be happy to stand corrected.
I’m comforted by Gordon’s post that he doesn’t even use a spreadsheet. I love spreadsheets, I’m a spreadsheet guy, but all I really want to know is the approximate concentrations of the ions that I’m putting into the mash and an approximation of what that’s going to do to pH and the final beer. From there I’m always going to be a trial and error guy who adjusts based on those practical data points.
Water chemistry is a very complex subject and if you’re an expert in the field you’re going to be able to dial things in to a degree that most of us cannot. I think these types of discussion are great and I follow them with great interest. But my objective is to make great beer and to the extent I can do that without taking a chemistry course that’s what I’m going to do.
I take your point. I decided to have the user enter salts as ppm of the water because this makes the salt additions independent of water volume. I like to think in volume and/or weight independent terms. Just like discussing a grist by referring to the percentages of malts used rather than assuming that we all brew 5 gal batches and refer to the weights of the malts.
But I see how many brewers just want to think in grams of salt added since this is what they end up weighing out and what they’ll remember from brew to brew. I may make the unit for the salts configurable in the future so salts can be entered as mg/l, gram and maybe even mg/kg. The latter is mg per kg grist.
Kai
Kai - here’s a +1 that this would be more helpful for most people - as said, I don’t think in ppms, I think in how much do I need to weigh out. Sure, I can make the calculations, but you know what I mean.
I use both Kai’s and the EZ water spreadsheet. While I agree the Kai’s may not be the most intuitive, it has helped me understand water chemistry far better. I’ve tried Palmer’s, but I found I was just fumbling around plugging numbers in at random until I started to get where I thought my water should be. Kai’s articles and using the his spreadsheet has helped illuminate how the different ions interact - its still pretty confusing to me, but at least I don’t feel I’m fumbling in the dark anymore.
The last few batches, I’ve focused soley on getting my mash pH down (my water is high in bicarbonates and sulphates and low on calcium and magnesium). The EZ water spreadsheet gives me abit of extra confidence that the pH will be where it is supposed to be and my efficiency has jumped from the high 70’s to the mid 80’s because of it.
After reading this thread, I’ll continue to focus only on the mash pH and if I want to adjust the chloride/sulphate ratio, I’ll do it in the kettle.
The discrepancy for the baking soda factor is me! Just a miscalculation.
Sounds like my water profile (Jacksonville, FL). May I ask how you do your salt additions?
My take home is to not to use chalk for raising alkalinity if baking soda will work acceptably, e.g., does not raise sodium excessively. My reasoning is that the calculation for the contribution to alkalinity from chalk is a crude empiricism that does not take into account a specific users chalk source,equipment, and procedures that could lead to different amounts of chalk being dissolved over the length of the mash.
I add a good dose of calcium chloride to bring the Ca above 50 ppm (usually around 2 grams for 3 gallons mash water) and touch of epsom salts to get the magnesium around 10 (1 gram for 3 gallons mash water). This leaves me with roughly balanced chloride : sulphate ratio. I use lactic acid to get the mash pH down the rest of the way (2 ml for last weekend’s brew - no roasted malts in that one).
The EZ Water Calculator helps me estimate the pH ( http://www.ezwatercalculator.com/ ). Kai’s articles and spreadsheet help me understand how my additions interact.
Thanks. I’ll keep that in mind if I ever go back to using the local water (which I may do as a side-by-side experiment along with RO water built up with salt additions to yield the same water profile). Right now, though, there’s something “intangible” about my local water. It just plain tastes terrible.
Great discussion.
Thank you all.
I am using EZ water Calculator.
The problem with chalk is that it appears as though you can’t predict the alkalinity it will contribute to the mash. It is notable that you can’t predict the mash pH very well regardless.
If you use a pH meter at dough-in, using chalk to raise the pH if needed works just fine as you are doing it empirically and you aren’t adding any unwanted sodium. If you rely on predicting things (you don’t have a pH meter), then baking soda will be more predictable subject to the caveat about too much sodium.
If you aren’t worried about working with it, potassium hydroxide would add a predictable amount of alkalinity and no sodium. I use it in mead making and use gloves and eye protection to mix a solution of known strength (whatever it is that the SPHBC folks recommend) and then gloves only when working with the solution. Never broke it out for a mash as:
- I rarely measure a mash pH that is lower than I want, and I typically start with modestly negative RA and
- When I do the amount of chalk required to raise it is uniformly pretty small.
Kai,
I also use the 2.0 version of the ezwatercalculator because I just couldn’t get my head around your spreadsheet. Have you looked at the version 2.0? He supposedly based it off of your data and not using Palmer’s method.
I’m curious if it’s predicting pH reasonably close. I’ll get a pH meter as soon as I can afford it, but have to make do with estimates until then.