This was my first time brewing, a dark beer with reverse osmosis water using bru’n water and my pH 10 minutes into the mash at 70° was 5.7. I was shooting for 5.55. Just wondering if this is going to make a big effect on taste? Any opinions?
Also, when I added my Brewing minerals, my strike water turned cloudy. And did not clear. Gypsum 1.12 g, CACL 2.79 g, Epsom salt 1.67 g, NaCl 0.37 g, baking soda, 3.05 g.
I will be surprised if there’s a detectable impact on flavor.
Within reason, good conversion in the mash is pretty insensitive to pH. A pH of 5.7 is fine–for the mash. But if that too-high a mash pH isn’t adjusted downward at kettle-full and carries downstream into the boil and finished beer, it would definitely be detectable, at least to my palate.
The cloudiness is calcium carbonate, it’s the calcium reacting with the bicarbonate anion.
A pH measurement 10 minutes into the mash can’t tell you anything. Mashing pH changes by several tenths during the mash and the early pH IS NOT where the final wort pH will end up.
In the case of a dark beer brewed with low alkalinity water, the early mashing pH is likely to be slightly higher than target with the pH falling as mashing time goes on. That is the opposite of what occurs with a pale beer brewed with an addition of acid in the mash, where the pH is likely to start out lower than target and rise slightly toward the targeted pH with mashing time.
Mashing pH does not become constant until about 45 minutes into the mash. Hopefully you measured wort pH later in the mash in addition to the 10 minute measurement.
Thanks Martin, I did not measure again. Maybe I will start doing a 15 and 45 minute measurement. Hopefully the beer will be drinkable.
I have not kept up with modern brewing science but it was my understanding that pH was only a factor when over sparging where the pH would rise esp with light beers and extract tannins.
At the time a good sprage volume was 1/2 gal per lb which maintained low enough pH for all beers.
Given my brewing of low OG beers I find this to be true. I sparge at 1/2 gal per lb and then add top off water to get my pre-boil gravity. No issues with astringency even when doing 100% pale malt beers
I haven’t changed the filters in my reverse osmosis system in a while. I just checked the pH of my RO water and it is 7.01. I wonder if this could have a reason for the pH going too high?
You can actually skip the 15
Water pH would have almost no effect on wort and mash pH. RO pH of 7 is fairly typical but could vary by maybe 1 unit.
I’ve come to the conclusion that sparging water pH isn’t really a prime concern. The main concern is sparging water alkalinity and it needs to be very low. The primary driver of tannin and silicate extraction from the mash is oversparging and not sparging water pH or temperature. I try to end sparging and runoff when the final runnings are around 5 brix or above. All the texts that I’ve seen, recommend ending at 2 brix, but that’s too low for my tastes and experience.
Trapae, a pH of near 7, neutral, for RO water is what I would expect.
As for your current batch, I wouldn’t change a thing and see how you like the flavor.
For you next batch you could drop or reduce the baking soda addition. It will tend to increase pH. Since you are looking for a slight decreased maybe add 1 gram or not at all. If your pH is still above your target at the 45 minute mark, you could add 1 to 3 mL of phosphoric acid (to a 5 gallon batch) to reduce it.
@mabrungard I’m a big fan of Bru’n Water (paid version). I always take a mash sample at 45mins, but wait 15 or more minutes for the temp to come down (to room temperature) before measuring the PH. Am I getting an accurate reading?
The reading is still accurate, but not timely. I recommend that you obtain a small container that’s large enough to fit your pH probe and place your sample in that and swirl the container in an ice bath to chill it more quickly. I use a stainless steel shot “glass” that is big enough for a standard pH probe. You do have to monitor the wort sample temperature since you don’t want it to get too cold. Somewhere in the 60F to 70F range is close enough. Temperature does affect the pH measurement. I can chill a pH sample in less than a minute.
I’ve been using and advocating that cooling method for 20+ years. It’s even in Experimental Homebrewing, with pictures.
How does this principle apply in a no-sparge setup? If I do a full-volume mash with a brewbag, I’m not sparging until I get particular brix/gravity. I just get whatever conversion & extraction I get in an essentially constant volume of water. Is this just N/A since I’m not progressively extracting sugars with a flow of new 1.000/0°Br water?
I have been thinking about this some more after reading this thread again this morning. I agree with Martin and Denny that the pH doesn’t completely stabilize until about 45 minutes into the mash. Correct me if I am off base here, but from everything I have read and from my experience and talking with people on the pro side, a major part of the conversion takes place in about the first 10 minutes or so of the mash. For that reason I try to take a pH reading of the mash about 15-20 minutes in to insure that I am in the strike zone on pH and not in the left field bleachers. If I am around where i want to be, then I feel I am OK. In the past, I have checked about 45 minutes in and am still have been the sweet spot. Comments?
I did have some issues with having pH readings that were off from what Bru’n Water predicted, but traced that problem to a probe that was past its life span. After replacing the probe, everything fell in line again.
It’s to be expected that pH, like probably every other variable, varies during the mash. At some point you just have to take it and move on (if you’re a pH taker). It will never be perfectly stable, even at 45 min.
I take it at 15 min. I find that my mash pH at 15 min is an excellent predictor of where my pre-boil pH will land. But this is only because it’s what I started doing and then got it dialed in. I would say the same thing if I took pH at 45 min, or 27 min, or 59 min. Once I had some mashes under my belt at whatever time I took pH, the predictability would be established. So in a way it’s arbitrary when you take pH as long as you have a reasonable gauge of the predictability, which comes from experience, and are consistent.
The 10 min thing for conversion: I have heard this too and am skeptical. The grains have to hydrate, then the starches have to gelatinize, before the enzymes can do their thing. 10 min seems too fast for this. But I will gladly accept it as true if shown facts/evidence/data.
So what’s the point of the measurement other than the measurement itself? I took a pH measurement a couple of times very early on 30 years ago Enough to say yup it is about right.
No sparge and batch sparge are unlikely to have low-strength wort in contact with the grist and they are unlikely to incur tannin and silicate extraction. That’s a real benefit of those brewing methods.
Goose, while I agree that the majority of STARCH conversion occurs in the first 10 minutes of a mash, that’s a meaningless fact since following that point is the conversion of those polysaccharides to a mixture of simpler sugars more suited to producing a quality beer. I’m pretty sure that stopping a mash at the 10 minute point and trying to create a beer from that would not be a desirable result. But responding to your quest to make sure that the early mashing pH is in the ballpark is still a wise check and its likely to be in range if the brewer did the mashing chemistry check before the mash or uses an established system of adjustments that have worked in past batches.
I have been keeping a closer eye on pH since recently re-watching Martin B’s interview w/ Martin Keen. He described the 45 min pH ck again that for some reason I had been neglecting. I now take samples at 10 min, 45 min, pre- and post- boil. Maybe overkill but I enjoy it.
Since I have the cooled samples available, I record temp and gravity as well. I routinely find that at the 10 min sample the gravity is ~ 45% +/- a percentage point or two of anticipated post boil original gravity (into fermenter).
My pre-boil gravity and volume tell me what my post boil gravity and volume should be. Since I have the sample I take a pH reading as a sanity ck. Though rare, that gravity and volume tells me if I will need to make a gravity or volume adjustment or not. I like to make those rare adjustments pre-boil.
The post boil sample confirms I hit my target gravity and pH into the fermenter. Volume is less important as long as I’m in the neighborhood which is a result of boil off.
I understand Denny’s suggestion to eliminate the 10 min sample. If I skipped it, it wouldn’t be the end of the batch. However, I find it useful as a sanity ck that I am on track at ~45% +/- a percent point or so of my estimated original gravity. I also note that if I am within the pH window (5.30-5.59 pH) if not extremely close to my target. I usually find the 45 min and post mash (pre boil) samples are extremely close to my pH target (+/- .1 pH).
I often read that if the pH target is off at 45 min it’s too late to do anything for the mash. While that may be true for the mash, because mash pH affects post boil pH in the fermenter and ultimately the finished beer pH, I find that adjustment should still be made. That adjustment ensures the post boil pH into the fermenter is on target to influence final beer pH — which is the ultimate goal. After all, I am making finished beer and finished beer pH affects flavor. (See How to Brew fig 21.2)
I know brewers who adjust pH pre-boil and post-boil to influence different characteristics but I generally just ensure my pH in on (or extremely near) target in my 45 min sample. If I do that I find the other readings fall into place.
Might be a dumb question, but I’ve been taking pH of mash fluid and a bunch of grains sitting in the fluid. Is it necessary to strain the grains out and take the pH of the fluid alone? And if so, why?