I am having some difficulty hitting my mash pH. I use brewfather, RO water, and put in the brewing salt adjustments according to the software. My last brew had a target pH reading of 5.3. But I took a reading after 10 mins into the mash and my reading came up in the 4.3 range. This wasn’t the only time I miss my pH by a mile.
I am using a brewzilla 35L 110 watt. I use rice hulls (.5-1 lb) when I brew an all grain batch, if it makes any difference. What am I doing wrong? Any suggestions or someone had similar issues?
That is a no-sparge brewing system where the full water volume is added at the start of mashing, correct? I found that mashing pH varies by several tenths during the mash duration. That pH variation is larger when the water to grist ratio is high (like these full volume brewing systems). Taking the mashing pH reading at only 10 minutes into the mash is FAR too short a time. The pH is no where near its final pH. While I do measure mashing pH at multiple times during a mash, its at about the 45 min mark that pH tends to become constant.
I do not know if Brewfather software is accurate or not, but I can tell you that you need to worry less about earlier measurements and continue to measure and monitor pH for a longer period.
So I have a question…(from one with little vested interest since I no longer use my pH meter )
I’ve understood that the bulk of conversion is done in the first x Minutes of the mash, where x = 10, 15, 20, 30, depending on what source you want to believe.
Wouldn’t the pH of the Mash be most important during the early stages of the mash? Or are you saying that an early pH reading is likely to be an incorrect one?
I brewed a series of single hopped beers one Summer to dial in my brewhaus and to see what a single hop tastes like. I noticed very little pH difference throughout the series.
As a side note, over that series I noticed most of the SG increase takes place within 20 min. @152*F. …but I measured additional SG increase to about the 100 min mark. Past the 100 min mark the SG did rise but very very little.
20 min 1.045, 5.47 pH, 65% of OG
40 min 1.056, 5.47 pH, + 11 points, 81% of OG (+16%)
60 min 1.060, 5.50 pH, + 4 points, 86% of OG (+5%)
80 min 1.065, 5.44 pH, + 5 points, 94% of OG (+8%)
90 min 1.069, 5.46 pH, + 4 points, (+6%)
And this is why I am mostly ambivalent about closely monitoring mash pH, or, depending on grist, even bothering taking it in the first place. Suppose you do the usual 60 min mash. If you wait to take a reading at 45 min and the pH reads as suboptimal, what are you going to do? By the time you take this reading, most/all of the conversion has happened, so adjusting the pH will have little effect on the mash. If you adjust the pH, how can you trust it until another ~45 min has gone by? Or, you can take the pH at 10 or 15 min into the mash…but if this measurement is highly variable and nowhere near the final pH, then what use is this?
Cue the rabbit hole.
Magically and mysteriously, my beers turn out fine regardless of whether I ignore mash pH, or obsess about it, or do something in between. I have come to realize that it takes a LOT of screwing up the mash conditions to interfere with those enzymes doing their thing. For me, this is at the top of the list of my reality-often-astonishes-theory realizations about homebrewing.
I am not arguing that mash pH is unimportant, especially when it comes to the darker grists. But pH is like pitch rate: close is good enough, AFAIC.
I have used Bru’n Water spreadsheet and Beer Smith software to predict my mash pH. The predicted mash pH with Bru’n Water and Beer Smith have came close to the measured pH. For me the Beer Smith BW Model was more accurate than the Beer Smith MPH 3 Model. You can download the Bru’n Water spreadsheet for free at https://www.brunwater.com. The Bru’n water spreadsheet is an excellent brewing tool.
The first clarification is that ‘conversion’ for those sources, is almost certainly referring to the conversion from starch to sugar. But that is not where mashing stops. A negative iodine test does not mean mashing is complete. There are still additional conversions from dextrins to polysaccharides to disaccharides to monosaccharides. So its NOT only the early stage of the mash that is important.
The horror story that I keep hearing from brewers, is them chasing pH targets at early points in the mash with acid and base additions, which then screws up pH later when the mashing duration catches up. A brewer is FAR better off employing a decent brewing water calculation to account for their water’s and grist’s contributions to mashing pH…and then letting the mashing proceed without chasing pH. If the materials, conditions, and inputs were accurate, the mashing pH will likely settle down to an acceptable result.
This couldn’t be more accurate. The mash you’re working on is not the time to be adjusting/chasing your target pH. It’s the time to be taking measurements and recording the results. If your results are different from your targets, make adjustments prior to your next mash and record those results. And so on, until you reach consistent results.
Enzyme activity, and denaturing, and the pH conditions that optimize that activity are not like light switches, they happen gradually. Chasing a pH target during that gradual process is almost an exercise in futility.
I quit worrying about mash pH because I know what it will be batch-to-batch.
This is the reason I moved to a standard mash profile for every beer by holding grain that screw with pH until the Vorlauf/Mash Out temp increase and using a standard brewhaus liquor profile.
No more reinventing the brewhaus liquor profile wheel on a spreadsheet for every brewday then taking readings to see if that profile hit the target or not. …only to wait weeks to see if the profile used on that beer tastes good or not. Then, taking notes to use on next brewday’s wheel reinvention. It just seemed like guesswork and was too inconsistent for me.
Now, every mash is consistent batch-to-batch to the point that after about 10 brewdays I quit taking mash pH readings altogether. They are all the same 5.4 +/- .1 so there is no point. A mash with only grains that require mashing seems to want to hit a pH that puts enzymes in their comfort zone so they can convert starch to sugar.
…and the resulting beers have been very consistent as well. Again, I don’t worry about mash pH at all anymore and instead focus on the end result.
As an added bonus it makes brewday SOoooo much easier. No more gram scales, spreadsheets, wort samples, pH meter, or box full of brewing salts and acids.
Edit: Just for giggles I took a pH reading today. 5.4 as always.
Glad you’re enjoying that approach. Now let’s talk about what that simplicity can often mean.
Reserving those pH reducing specialty grains to the end of the mash doesn’t really alter their pH reducing habit, it just helps keep the main mash pH from dropping too low where that can create excess proteolysis and a resulting thin beer. This is especially true for the porters and stouts where they end up too acrid, sharp, and bitter. The other thing that can be a problem, is that the proportion of those specialty grains often has to be boosted if they are added at the end of the mash. If the recipe has already been tuned for the late addition technique, then you’re fine. But if it’s a recipe based on mashing everything together, you could be disappointed.
Living with your tap water profile can be fine. That’s what all brewers had to do before they learned that chemistry existed and they could adjust their water (in some cases) to better suit their beer. But if your water isn’t suited to the style that you’d really like to come out well, then you’re screwed. The ionic content of brewing water can have a profound effect on the flavor and perceptions of the beer and there isn’t any way around that…but you’ll still make beer, its just less likely to be a great beer.
If you’re happy with the results, then that’s fine. The great thing is that you have come up with a good way to avoid one of the major pitfalls to brewing…too high mashing and wort pH. That works for you and its a goal that every brewer should strive for. I’m not sure if you’ve implemented some minimal treatment like adding a capful of your favorite acid to the liquor, but that is often something that is missed in most basic brewing. Once you’ve defined what ‘treatment’ measures are needed for your water and you’ve confirmed either good outcomes or taken measurements, then you’re golden!
Great points as always Martin. Thx for that. Fortunately, I have enjoyed every beer since I began this process. I haven’t noticed any thin beers yet. It seems to work great for me on my system.
I found 10% Phosphoric Acid even at a dose rate of 1/8 tsp too strong for the RO/distilled I use, so I tried 1 tsp Ascorbic Acid powder along with 1 tsp CaCl in the mash this last batch. The phosphoric would drop the pH too low, too fast. Maybe it’s because at zero or near zero TDS there was nothing to buffer it.
There are reports of AA creating hydrogen peroxide in the absence of sulfur but so far so good in the mash. I’ve not noticed any darkening or off flavors.
I also use Brewtan B, Active Dry Yeast and sugar to create my brewhaus liquor and add flavor salts to the boil.
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