What are the high and low limits of using phosphoric acid in your mash without damaging the recipe? I can’t find anything regarding limits. Right now i have a recipe that i may require anywhere from 4mL to 7mL. Any inputs would be helpful or even resources that may inlighten me. Thanks
In John Palmers book, page 164, he states "Phosphoric acid is not recommended because it reacts chemically with calcium in the mash and changes the whole playing field, rather then simple adjusting the ph.
I use muriatic acid, real easy to come by.
Phosphoric acid is fine to use and the flavor threshold is pretty high. Your 4-7 ml is perfectly acceptable and will have no impact on the flavor. I routinely use at least that much.
Edit - To clarify I’m diluting it to a 10% solution before using.
You would have to add a pretty obscene amount to damage the recipe… I am thinking an amount that would put your pH so out of whack that you would notice that before the effects of the extra phosphate.
The calcium thing has been debunked many, many times on this forum. Here is an example.
Some guy named Gordon Stong likes it because it is flavor neutral.
Some guy named Martin Brungard has said that you have about 10000 times the phosphate compounds from the mash than you will add acid. The recuction in Ca is negligable.
I must agree with Jeff et al. We have used it and it does well at reducing pH, especially in sparge water, with no added effect on flavor.
Awesome thanks for the comments, definitely confident in using it now.
Guess I really stepped in it there. Only had one book open, but I spell better.
Conversely, what substance would have an effect on flavor that phosphoric acid does not?
I’d go with Palmer on this one.
Lactic acid adds lactates… in large enough amounts it will contribute a sour flavor. Sulfuric acid adds sulfates.
Thank you.
FWIW, Sierra Nevada uses it to bring the pH of all their water down to 5.5.
Yes, my spelling is poor, and so are my typing skills.
This is true. John Palmer is touring breweries for the “Water” book. I think he may have a new take on the use of phosphoric acid in brewing.
I recently saw a big jump in brewhouse efficiency by treating my sparge water in addition to my mash water, which was a snap using the new v1.12 of Bru’n Water, and involved a small addition of phosphoric acid in both water treatments. We’re talking about my guess of at least a 6 point efficiency increase in a 1.063 OG targeted beer with 5.5 pH mash and all other efficiency contributors accounted for.
I realize this is an old thread but I have a few questions on this topic. I have been using Bruunwater for several years and my beer is definitely better for it. My source water has 284 ppm bicarbonates so I’ve had to make significant adjustments to it. I cut it with distilled water and often start with >50% distilled water. I usually use CaCl, CaSo4, and lactic acid to adjust my water and really don’t ever go above 1 ml/gallon of finished beer with the lactic acid for fear of an unwanted flavor contribution. I recently picked up a bottle of 10% phosphoric acid at my HBS. It is my understanding that phosphoric acid has no/limited flavors so that it could be used in greater quantities. I realize that 10% is a fairly weak solution and would require more to be effective. I just ran the numbers on a beer (2B) that I want to brew tomorrow (42% pils, 42% vienna, 14% corn, and 2% midnight wheat). I used lactic acid to correct the mash. I cut the sparge with 50% distilled water but still need to add 33ml of phosphoric acid to bring the sparge pH down to 5.5. My question is whether this is a good idea- seems like a lot.
Thanks
Hopefully Martin will see this and add his recommendations, but I can tell you that my tap water’s bicarbonate is 151 ppm, roughly half of what yours is. Anyway, I use 85% phos acid dosed via syringe prior to heating my strike water and I always come in below the taste threshold (in the final beer) using 100% tap water for most ales. My thought is that would be similar to you using 50% distilled or RO water + phos acid. Get yourself some higher % phos acid. You can google for 85% strength - it’s sold by such businesses as Duda Diesel, and normally available via Amazon. When I make pilsner I cut my water with 50 - 75% RO, so I would recommend you go with 100% RO for pilsners.
My other salts etc. added to mash water before stirring in the grist are gypsum, calcium chloride, Epsom salt, canning salt, and sometimes for dark beers pickling lime (added directly to the mash)
I hope that helps.
Edit: I forgot to mention that with the method mentioned above, sometimes I come as close as 70 - 90% of the level established as still under the taste threshold for phos acid - as I’ve previously read by knowledgeable folks. I’m just too lazy right now to go back and research what that threshold is.
Also consider using a touch of acidulated malt. I make 10 gallon Pilsner batches with up to a pound of acidulated malt without any problems. Of course you will want to use a calibrated pH meter to know where you are at…
Isn’t acidulated malt just going to add more lactic? If I understood correctly, he’s trying to get more acidification and avoid any lactic flavor.
I’ve had the same issues with low concentrations of phosphoric requiring a large quantity. I wouldn’t imagine it to be an issue as lower concentrations just mean you’re adding a few 10s of mL of distilled water in addition to the acid. Sub-optimal from a cost/effort perspective, but I can’t see any issue for the beer.
Hopefully someone smarter than me will weigh in, but those are my thoughts/experience.