Seven Bridges Co-Op out of santa cruz sells a decent selection of organic hops from around the world. I’m still looking for a readily available local source but most of the hops grown in VT are snapped up by local breweries pretty quickly. The industry is growing though. Farmers know a good chance as profit when they see one.
I’m definitely coming around to Special B Dave. I think for some time I was getting stale grain from one of the local shops. My I experienced palette didn’t pick it up. My new shop has all the Dingemans line fresh pretty much all the time.
It is going to end up being a staple and I chalk up my disdain for it previously to some poor examples of freshness.
The answer to this question is so easily dependent upon what style I am brewing and what I can get reasonably priced at the time. Generally you can’t go wrong targeting grain from the maltsters native to the area from which a given style originates. It’s not an accident that much of what we consider authentic about native renditions of many styles is found in the particular aspects of the products of their local maltsters.
That said, much of my brewing is sours and saisons where the grain bill is typically very simple. My preference is usually to use whatever German pils malt I can find from local shops but I have used American pils malt without much difference, especially in the sours. Even when brewing darker sours I feel comfortable using American specialty malts (typically Briess is what’s available) because age and fermentation is going to roll off a lot of the finer aspects of the various European varieties. Works fine for Russian River so it’s good enough for me.
As far as hops, I tend to bitter with whatever hops I have on hand that will give me a clean bitternes for most beers. For flavor hops I tend to keep on hand cascade plus a handful of European varieties.
Pilsner malt - Weyermann but no preference Pale malt - Maris Otter, usually Warminster but no preference Munich malt/Vienna malt - Weyermann but no pref. Think their flavour contribution is overestimated. Pointless at under 25% of grain bill. Other Base malts (MO/GP) - haven’t used many others Specialty malt(s) - Dingeman’s Aromatic. Wow! Bittering hops - Magnum Aroma hops - Citra & Mosaic for ales, Hallertau Mittelfruh & Saaz for lager/Belgian. Love Cascade but never really captured it in a bottle. Flavor hops - see aroma hops Adjuncts - no favourite. Happy to try anything new or weird - porridge oats, polenta, pudding rice, whatever. Sugars - home made brewers invert syrup
I don’t use Vienna enough to comment there, but I agree with Derek that Munich contributes a noticeable flavor at lower than 25% of the grist. I can pick up on the toastiness at 10-15% of the grist. At 25% you start to hit the point where Munich starts to overpower other ingredients (hops in particular).
You might be right about darker Munichs, but I’m not convinced light Munich does anything when used as a substitute for crystal. There was an experiment posted on one of the homebrew websites recently where a brewer made the same beer twice - one with 90% Munich + 10% Pilsner and the other with 90% Pilsner and 10% Munich. The two beers were very similar. Might have been different with standard 2-row or a dark Munich.
I’d be curious to know the particulars. At face value, I wouldn’t use what one guy on the Internet said. How many people actually tasted those beers and what were their biases? I’ve been given the wrong malt before… makes me wonder if his pils malt and munich were actually the same malt. I know for a fact I could immediately tell you which one was 90 pils 10 munich and which was the other way around. Even with Best Malz pils and light munich, which is only about 6L. I could see some having difficulty picking out the difference between 100% pils vs 90/10, but not 90/10 vs 10/90.
As far as no difference when subbing for crystal? In what kind of beer, and what amounts, which crystal? First off, munich isnt trying to be a sub for crystal. However a few of us have all but quit using crystal in exchange for munich or Vienna or the like. But not subbed one for one usually. My pale ale used to be GW 2 row and about 10% C10. It was ok but too… standard home brewy? Now its 70% Simpson GP and 30% Best light munich. I think its far more interesting and complex than it used to be. Some would say that an APA should have crystal to be an authentic APA, and that’s cool I suppose. I’m more concerned with enjoying my beer than trying to maintain authenticity.
Anyway, im not anti-crystal. I also dont get a kick back for every pound of munich sold. But if someone can’t differentiate pils from munuch, something is up
If I can find the experiment I’ll post a link. I found it surprising too, but I was already aware that Vienna contributes very little from experience and light Munich isn’t that far from Vienna.
As for complexity, I think you can get that from 100% base malt and the right yeast. Also the stronger a beer is, the more complex it tends to taste. I’m not a fan of fiddly grain bills. Here’s a recent example from a UK website. I’m sure it will make fine beer, but nobody is going to have exactly the right ingredients on hand to follow it.
Agree that Munich is not a sub for crystal, but it’s surprising how many brewers confuse the various meanings of “malty” (sweetness/body/Maillard flavours) and think Munich is bascially the same thing as crystal and adding sweetness @ 5-10% of the grain bill. I do use it to dial up the Maillard flavour but it’s nowhere near as powerful as aromatic or melanoidin malt for that.
I agree with some that I get definite Munich character with < 25%, even pale Munich. Not all Munichs are created equal, so I’m assuming maltster differences account for much of the disagreement.
I just did a Blonde with 18% Light Munich (Weyermann), 82% 2-row. I thought there was a very noticeable flavor contribution from the Munich that didn’t taste like caramel. More toasty malty flavor.
Yeast choice and other recipe details may contribute to whether you can taste the Munich.
Regarding yeast effecting flavor, agreed 100%. Silly as it sounds, I find that every yeast does that. I’ve never had a beer with a final flavor that was exactly like the sweet wort it started out as. I have an idea that many specialty grains retain much of their characteristic flavor despite the fermentation. Such as roasts and medium-dark crystals. I view Munich and Vienna as a base malt rather than specialty because they can convert themselves.
Anyway, I don’t think we are disagreeing, just viewing from different angles
$10 says that it was Breiss Pils and Breiss Munich, which are sorry excuses for Pils and Munich.
But it is of no matter, really. If I can taste the difference between 5% Munich and 7% Munich (or Best Pils and Dingemans Pils… or 10% table sugar and 13% table sugar… etc) in my own beers, then I’ll continue to tweak my recipes as such. 8)
I appreciate all the responses. It looks like the LHBSs near where I’ll be moving will be good spots for hops and yeast. Grain however will likely be purchased online though.
Pilsner malt -Best
Pale malt - Rahr
Munich malt/Vienna malt - Best or Weyermann
Other Base malts (MO/GP) - TF or Crisp MO, Simpsons GP
Specialty malt(s) - special roast, C90
Bittering hops - Magnum, but depends on style
Aroma hops - too many to choose. Citra, Amarillo and (still) Cascade for IPA’s, EKG, Styrians…
Flavor hops - too many to choose…
Adjuncts - oats, wheat
Sugars - table sugar, sometimes local honey (sourwood and gallberry)
