Questions about "brewing to style guidelines" and beer judging

[CounterPressure]

In the beer guidelines, there will be commercial examples listed for the styles.  For those of you who judge beer, (and maybe also those who don’t I suppose…), how much importance do you place with respect to the similarity of a beer to the “commercial examples”? Is that even given weight in the scoring? Do some judges expect a beer to basically mimic the examples or it’s docked score or is it a ‘wild west’ thing with regard to judging expectations?

Follow up question, is there an expectation for beers to have a ‘made in a factory’ feel to them?  I can’t even say what that is, but there is (at least to my taste buds) a difference between commercially made beer and hand made beer. I personally find beer to be unique in the food and drink world, in that the benchmarks for beer are commercially made. Yet if we cook a pot of soup, we most definitely do not compare to Campbells or Progresso.  There is irony is that in the beer world, the commercial examples are so highly regarded, while in the food world, the opposite is true.

[BrewBama (Dwain)]

The guidelines address this issue in various places throughout.

For example:

Or:

We don’t get to choose if we live or die. Death is certain. We only get to choose how we live before we die.

[CounterPressure]

Gotcha, thanks.  I’d not seen that, given how little I looked at what it takes to become a judge (as I have little or no interest in becoming one).

[dmtaylor (Dave Taylor)]

A good judge will have tasted at least one or two of the “commercial examples” listed in the guidelines for every style available in their country, to give them some idea of what “good” really is.  Good judges should not expect exact clones, but with experience it should become more and more apparent to the good judge which characteristics are crucial, which are optional, and which are uncharacteristic and thus not really desirable within a particular style.

Obviously, if I’ve never been to Czech Republic (for example, or wherever), I’m not going to be able to use the listed examples to bolster my qualifications, which admittedly puts me at a significant disadvantage compared with some other judges who HAVE been able to taste some of those.  But where possible, good judges should strive to be tasting enough good examples, preferably those listed in the guidelines, to ensure they’re not missing something intangible that you just can’t pick out from reading the black & white guideline descriptions.

All that being said… there are good judges with less experience, and there are bad judges with a lot of experience, and good judges can have bad days, and everything else in between.  Thus, every judging session & competition is always a crapshoot.  Judging remains largely subjective, and prone to a thousand variables that will never be perfect.  And I don’t know about you, but if I enter competitions, I don’t want AI judging beers for me either.  The human touch is still superior, despite our “flaws”.

Regarding the OP’s second question about an intangible quality of having been “made in a factory”, I would argue that there might in fact be such a thing as the opposite, “homebrewed beer” flavors, kind of sort of.  Not that commercial brewers never have off-flavors because of course they do!  But there are common off-flavors that just seem to be much more common with homebrewers of any experience level (but mostly amateurs), versus commercial brewers who have been brewing a batch or two every single day for the past 10 years or whatever.  And this fact, IF it is a fact, is OK.  Homebrewers are definitely capable of brewing flawless beers, it’s something I’m sure we all strive for and it’s totally achievable, and not even super difficult (though a little bit of luck also can help).  But by & large I do think commercial examples are relatively better on average than homebrews from an average brewer on an average day.  People can hate me for this opinion, but it is MY opinion.  And in truth I am likely wrong.  And I’m OK with that.

As a judge, what do I expect from a 45- or 50-point example, if that’s what “made in a factory” is meant to imply?  Well, it needs to be flawless.  Does this mean it needs to taste like it was made in a commercial brewery?  Well… maybe, kind of?  But what it really means is that I can detect zero off-flavors, and it meets the style guidelines, and that I would want to buy a pint of this and would enjoy the whole pint and not just the first or second sip but then be done with it.  I would love if all commercial beers were like this, but of course they are not all like this!  There are plenty of commercial beers out there that I would NOT want to drink a whole pint of, sad but true.  And there are certainly MILLIONS of commercial beers out there that if I judged in competition, I would probably only score them 25-30 points, sometimes less, sometimes much less.

So then, is “made in a factory” such a good thing?!  Meh… the idea might be closer to meaningless.  I dunno.

Great questions, fun to think about some more later if/when I have more time.

Cheers!

[Village_Taphouse]

I don’t have much to say other than I want my beer to taste like “beer” and not “homebrew”.  The word “homebrew” has a negative vibe to it (for some people).

Also, I do sometimes get a little twitchy when someone makes a beer with 2-row, C60, Columbus hops and 1056 and calls it an Oktoberfest.  I don’t know much about BJCP judging or style guidelines.  I do try to color inside the lines when I am making something specific like a Munich Helles.  In that case I would be trying to duplicate the style as best I can.  Other times I might go rogue and throw a bunch of ingredients together because I envision something and it probably doesn’t belong in any specific category but in the end it makes good beer.  But in that case I’m not going to call it something it’s not.  Maybe I call it a “gold lager” or an “amber ale” because it’s close.

[jamullins095_yahoo.com (John M)]

When I judge, I observe and take note of the beers every aspect as I perceive it (aroma, appearance, flavor, mouthfeel, overall impression). THEN, I reference the BJCP guidelines to see how well my perception aligns with the guidelines. I certainly try not to compare to other commercial examples. Although after years of “research”, I know what most styles should taste like.

I think the “made in a factory” perception is probably just crisp, “clean”, clear and highly carbonated. Which in many styles is appropriate and desirable. The macros, and some of the larger “craft” breweries filter their beer, so that removes a lot of the al natural you get in home brewed beer.

Regarding your reference to homemade soups vs. canned soups, those have gone thru the canning process, which means they were heated to sterilizing temperatures in the can, which takes away the freshness you get in homemade. Of course, they use additives to combat that, which further leads to artificial product.

[Richard.Swent_gmail.com (Richard)]

@dmtaylor

… Judging remains largely subjective…

Yes! No way around that.

[CounterPressure]

It’ll take me a couple days to digest these responses and respond to them properly. Lots of good points being made.

@dmtaylor

Regarding the OP’s second question about an intangible quality of having been “made in a factory”, I would argue that there might in fact be such a thing as the opposite, “homebrewed beer” flavors, kind of sort of.  Not that commercial brewers never have off-flavors because of course they do!  But there are common off-flavors that just seem to be much more common with homebrewers of any experience level (but mostly amateurs), versus commercial brewers who have been brewing a batch or two every single day for the past 10 years or whatever.  And this fact, IF it is a fact, is OK.  Homebrewers are definitely capable of brewing flawless beers, it’s something I’m sure we all strive for and it’s totally achievable, and not even super difficult (though a little bit of luck also can help).  But by & large I do think commercial examples are relatively better on average than homebrews from an average brewer on an average day.  People can hate me for this opinion, but it is MY opinion.  And in truth I am likely wrong.  And I’m OK with that.

As a judge, what do I expect from a 45- or 50-point example, if that’s what “made in a factory” is meant to imply?  Well, it needs to be flawless.  Does this mean it needs to taste like it was made in a commercial brewery?  Well… maybe, kind of?  But what it really means is that I can detect zero off-flavors, and it meets the style guidelines, and that I would want to buy a pint of this and would enjoy the whole pint and not just the first or second sip but then be done with it.

I want to respond to a couple of these things. The first paragraph quoted I am pretty much on the same page with you 100%. With some caveats. If I’m really objective, my own beers are almost always imperfect. And that’s with the guy judging it being the one who brewed it specifically to his own taste. So if we accept /expect any subjectivity whatsoever from the judge, then it’s pretty clearly not going to be flawless.

John M mentions the bigger breweries filtering their beer, and I would imagine most times that’s done with a centrifuge. To me that’s one of those made in a factory characteristics that is almost a requirement for commercial breweries, but is also kind of a double-edged sword with respect to clarity and maturity of homebrew and judging it.

Take kölsch for example, this is a beer that’s expected to be served young and filtered, and by its very nature more or less disqualifies any home brewed example from the top of the scoring range. But ironically it’s a style that I far and away prefer the small brewery or home brewed versions. To me there’s just something missing. Now if I make a batch (for me that means 10 gallons), by the time the first keg is floating pretty high, it will be crystal clear and taking on a ton of the characteristics that I find in the filtered commercial versions. What it won’t have is the young flavor anymore. To me it’s two completely different beers at the two stages, neither of which fit the guidelines neatly. But I personally wouldn’t consider either one of them flawed, and if I were to attempt to tweak the recipe to improve it, I don’t think I’d want it closer to the commercial versions. But that’s probably exactly what’s needed to get a higher score.

Now it’s possible kölsch wasn’t the best choice for my analogy, but it’s a style that I brew, so that’s what I chose. If we were to instead use American light lager for instance, I can think of a few wildly popular examples, Miller Lite, Coors Light, Busch, and so on, that I really don’t think are something to aspire to. I can appreciate the consistency they achieve and the difficulty in brewing those beers. But I don’t want to drink them and I don’t want to brew them. Something tells me that when people judge that style, they’re making every effort to forget about the prominent commercially made versions, but the same might not be true for other styles. And I might argue that deviating pretty heavily from commercial versions is actually a good thing, and not just on a select few styles, but maybe on quite a few of them.

I’m out of time for tonight.

[Drewch (Drew C.)]

@CounterPressure

I personally find beer to be unique in the food and drink world, in that the benchmarks for beer are commercially made. Yet if we cook a pot of soup, we most definitely do not compare to Campbells or Progresso.  There is irony is that in the beer world, the commercial examples are so highly regarded, while in the food world, the opposite is true.

If the feds made cooking soup at home illegal for the better part is a century, Campbells & Progresso would be all you knew.

[ynotbrusum]

@CounterPressure

It’ll take me a couple days to digest these responses and respond to them properly. Lots of good points being made.

@dmtaylor

Regarding the OP’s second question about an intangible quality of having been “made in a factory”, I would argue that there might in fact be such a thing as the opposite, “homebrewed beer” flavors, kind of sort of.  Not that commercial brewers never have off-flavors because of course they do!  But there are common off-flavors that just seem to be much more common with homebrewers of any experience level (but mostly amateurs), versus commercial brewers who have been brewing a batch or two every single day for the past 10 years or whatever.  And this fact, IF it is a fact, is OK.  Homebrewers are definitely capable of brewing flawless beers, it’s something I’m sure we all strive for and it’s totally achievable, and not even super difficult (though a little bit of luck also can help).  But by & large I do think commercial examples are relatively better on average than homebrews from an average brewer on an average day.  People can hate me for this opinion, but it is MY opinion.  And in truth I am likely wrong.  And I’m OK with that.

As a judge, what do I expect from a 45- or 50-point example, if that’s what “made in a factory” is meant to imply?  Well, it needs to be flawless.  Does this mean it needs to taste like it was made in a commercial brewery?  Well… maybe, kind of?  But what it really means is that I can detect zero off-flavors, and it meets the style guidelines, and that I would want to buy a pint of this and would enjoy the whole pint and not just the first or second sip but then be done with it.

I want to respond to a couple of these things. The first paragraph quoted I am pretty much on the same page with you 100%. With some caveats. If I’m really objective, my own beers are almost always imperfect. And that’s with the guy judging it being the one who brewed it specifically to his own taste. So if we accept /expect any subjectivity whatsoever from the judge, then it’s pretty clearly not going to be flawless.

John M mentions the bigger breweries filtering their beer, and I would imagine most times that’s done with a centrifuge. To me that’s one of those made in a factory characteristics that is almost a requirement for commercial breweries, but is also kind of a double-edged sword with respect to clarity and maturity of homebrew and judging it.

Take kölsch for example, this is a beer that’s expected to be served young and filtered, and by its very nature more or less disqualifies any home brewed example from the top of the scoring range. But ironically it’s a style that I far and away prefer the small brewery or home brewed versions. To me there’s just something missing. Now if I make a batch (for me that means 10 gallons), by the time the first keg is floating pretty high, it will be crystal clear and taking on a ton of the characteristics that I find in the filtered commercial versions. What it won’t have is the young flavor anymore. To me it’s two completely different beers at the two stages, neither of which fit the guidelines neatly. But I personally wouldn’t consider either one of them flawed, and if I were to attempt to tweak the recipe to improve it, I don’t think I’d want it closer to the commercial versions. But that’s probably exactly what’s needed to get a higher score.

Now it’s possible kölsch wasn’t the best choice for my analogy, but it’s a style that I brew, so that’s what I chose. If we were to instead use American light lager for instance, I can think of a few wildly popular examples, Miller Lite, Coors Light, Busch, and so on, that I really don’t think are something to aspire to. I can appreciate the consistency they achieve and the difficulty in brewing those beers. But I don’t want to drink them and I don’t want to brew them. Something tells me that when people judge that style, they’re making every effort to forget about the prominent commercially made versions, but the same might not be true for other styles. And I might argue that deviating pretty heavily from commercial versions is actually a good thing, and not just on a select few styles, but maybe on quite a few of them.

I’m out of time for tonight.

Try using a floating diptube.  You get clear beer even when fairly young.  Personally, i use a floating dip tube in my fermenter, then not in my serving keg.  I have pretty clear beer in a little over a week and gin clear beer in around 2 weeks.  That is pretty fresh….FWIW.

[CounterPressure]

@Drewch

@CounterPressure

I personally find beer to be unique in the food and drink world, in that the benchmarks for beer are commercially made. Yet if we cook a pot of soup, we most definitely do not compare to Campbells or Progresso.  There is irony is that in the beer world, the commercial examples are so highly regarded, while in the food world, the opposite is true.

If the feds made cooking soup at home illegal for the better part is a century, Campbells & Progresso would be all you knew.

Perhaps, but then too had they made homemade soup illegal, you would think that someone would have come along and made better commercial soup; no?  If the beer industry is any indicator, I guess that answer is no. They made cheaper beer, but they damn sure weren’t aiming for “better”.

@ynotbrusum

Try using a floating diptube.  You get clear beer even when fairly young.  Personally, i use a floating dip tube in my fermenter, then not in my serving keg.  I have pretty clear beer in a little over a week and gin clear beer in around 2 weeks.  That is pretty fresh….FWIW.

Ok, I’ll try that.  With my used brewzilla purchase a few weeks ago I think I acquired 3 or 4 of them. Never used one before.  I’ll give that a shot.  Sadly, this was a closed transfer beer so opening a keg is going to kind of defeat that (not that I"m ocd about the oxygen uptake from such things).

[CounterPressure]

So today at work I decided I would make a trip to get a few beers.  There’s a Wegmans (grocery store) that has a “Craft your own 6 pack” section, and as I remembered was well stocked years ago.  I went just a little bit ago, it’s a bit of a haul, and the entire store has been remodeled and the section was moved and is now far smaller… :(  But, it was there.  The selection was lesser for sure.

Now, generally speaking, if I aim for a malty flavor in a beer I make, it’s almost guaranteed to have a sweet background.  I suppose it’s unfermentable sugars, but I have begun to believe there’s more to it than just that. I think the process adds to the effect, even if there’s almost nothing left after fermentation.  That said, I consider my not-so-dry beers to be on the borderline of flawed.  Doesn’t mean they’re not popular with guests, quite the opposite. In fact they’re wildly accepted by guests at my house.  But I wonder if that’s really what a good example should be.  I really do not like sweet wine, and while I wouldn’t say my beer has ever been cloying, so many American beers are dead dry that I almost think people expect that, and I sort of think beer people even think that way.

So, why say all this?  Well, I grabbed 6 different beers and I’m drinking one now.  This is a Belhaven Scottish Ale.  Generally I’m a fan of Scottish Ale.  This one is actually made in Scotland, so I’d like to think this would be what a judge would say is “proper” Scottish Ale.

Read the label, says right under the title, “. rich nutty smooth .” (no other punctuation).  Take a whiff of the bottle after pouring.  Wth is that?  My first thought was they’ve added something to it. Maybe some Cream Sherry… Seriously like Cream Sherry aroma.  Not offensive by any means, but… in beer?  This is an aroma you can’t avoid.  No getting around it, it’s nutty… I taste it, WOW!  Ok, this is clearly sweet on the background, but holy cow is this stuff good. This might be on the borderline of how sweet I could take a beer, but this is one I’m pretty sure would be hard to stop drinking.  If I had brewed this, I seriously would think this would score low 20s in a competition, and yet this is stellar. I just can’t help but think there’s a lot of preconceptions (maybe because I have so many) about what a beer should be.  This is not even close to what I would have expected.

Having been in only one competition ever, I wonder what the judges expect.  If anyone out there has tried this, I’d be curious to hear what you think of it from a home brew judging standpoint.  Meaning, if a home brewer brought this to a competition, what would you think of that beer?

Ok, I just went to post a link to the beer’s product page, and read their description.  Lmao.  I’m not even going to edit the above.

https://www.belhaven.co.uk/our-beers/belhaven-scottish-ale

[jamullins095_yahoo.com (John M)]

@CounterPressure

So today at work I decided I would make a trip to get a few beers.  There’s a Wegmans (grocery store) that has a “Craft your own 6 pack” section, and as I remembered was well stocked years ago.  I went just a little bit ago, it’s a bit of a haul, and the entire store has been remodeled and the section was moved and is now far smaller… :(  But, it was there.  The selection was lesser for sure.

Now, generally speaking, if I aim for a malty flavor in a beer I make, it’s almost guaranteed to have a sweet background.  I suppose it’s unfermentable sugars, but I have begun to believe there’s more to it than just that. I think the process adds to the effect, even if there’s almost nothing left after fermentation.  That said, I consider my not-so-dry beers to be on the borderline of flawed.  Doesn’t mean they’re not popular with guests, quite the opposite. In fact they’re wildly accepted by guests at my house.  But I wonder if that’s really what a good example should be.  I really do not like sweet wine, and while I wouldn’t say my beer has ever been cloying, so many American beers are dead dry that I almost think people expect that, and I sort of think beer people even think that way.

So, why say all this?  Well, I grabbed 6 different beers and I’m drinking one now.  This is a Belhaven Scottish Ale.  Generally I’m a fan of Scottish Ale.  This one is actually made in Scotland, so I’d like to think this would be what a judge would say is “proper” Scottish Ale.

Read the label, says right under the title, “. rich nutty smooth .” (no other punctuation).  Take a whiff of the bottle after pouring.  Wth is that?  My first thought was they’ve added something to it. Maybe some Cream Sherry… Seriously like Cream Sherry aroma.  Not offensive by any means, but… in beer?  This is an aroma you can’t avoid.  No getting around it, it’s nutty… I taste it, WOW!  Ok, this is clearly sweet on the background, but holy cow is this stuff good. This might be on the borderline of how sweet I could take a beer, but this is one I’m pretty sure would be hard to stop drinking.  If I had brewed this, I seriously would think this would score low 20s in a competition, and yet this is stellar. I just can’t help but think there’s a lot of preconceptions (maybe because I have so many) about what a beer should be.  This is not even close to what I would have expected.

Having been in only one competition ever, I wonder what the judges expect.  If anyone out there has tried this, I’d be curious to hear what you think of it from a home brew judging standpoint.  Meaning, if a home brewer brought this to a competition, what would you think of that beer?

Ok, I just went to post a link to the beer’s product page, and read their description.  Lmao.  I’m not even going to edit the above.

https://www.belhaven.co.uk/our-beers/belhaven-scottish-ale

Sounds tasty to me! I see it is 5.2%, so that puts it in the Scottish Export range. Per BJCP- “Light pome fruitiness in best examples.” I’d say the nuttiness is also welcome.

[denny]

Wegman’s doesn’t sound like the kind of place I’d look for world beer in good condition, but what do I know?

You want to see malty but not sweet? Ayinger dunkel. Sweet doesn’t necessarily just come from unforgettable sugar.

[Richard.Swent_gmail.com (Richard)]

Sherry is one of the flavors from oxidation and staleness.

[CounterPressure]

@denny

Wegman’s doesn’t sound like the kind of place I’d look for world beer in good condition, but what do I know?

You want to see malty but not sweet? Ayinger dunkel. Sweet doesn’t necessarily just come from unforgettable sugar.

Wegmans is a pretty big outfit and I don’t know what people perceive of them elsewhere, but here they are pretty much the de facto standard for craft beer quality and availability. I’m not sure there’s a close second place. Now there is a distributor who handles train loads of import beers, but unfortunately there you have to purchase by the case. I’ve had some pretty harsh lessons in being adventurous with Off the Wall beers by the case. Our store locally since shortly after it was built has had a section completely devoted to beer and wine and they take it pretty seriously. Since the last time I was there which is probably about a year ago, they’ve now moved the entire section to the center of the store. It was in a purpose-built location to begin with but they’ve turned that into a cafe and now the beer and wine is hidden in the center of the place.

Ayinger was actually one of the brands I went looking for but they didn’t have any today. That’s not to say they won’t have it later. But odds are I would have to buy a case or something like that because I have no idea where I could find it around here. There is certainly no bar that has bottled beer like that.

[CounterPressure]

@richard

Sherry is one of the flavors from oxidation and staleness.

Well, I don’t think that’s what I was tasting but I suppose anything is possible.

[dmtaylor (Dave Taylor)]

I like Belhaven but it seems much sweeter recently than it was years ago.  I personally would like to ding it if judged in competition, BUT I wouldn’t ding it because it’s considered a classic example.  A little sweeter than I prefer, but the BJCP has spoken.

The little extra something in the aroma and flavor is likely the smoky phenols which come from Scottish yeasts, specifically WLP028 or Wyeast 1728 or their kin.  That is part of the style which the BJCP might poo-poo but they’re wrong on that.  My own judgment would prevail in this situation over that of the BJCP.

[jeffy]

@richard

Sherry is one of the flavors from oxidation and staleness.

Yeah, I’m thinking your bottle was old.
When fresh that’s a good example of a Scottish Export. Goes really well with Saag Gosht.

[denny]

@CounterPressure

@denny

Wegman’s doesn’t sound like the kind of place I’d look for world beer in good condition, but what do I know?

You want to see malty but not sweet? Ayinger dunkel. Sweet doesn’t necessarily just come from unforgettable sugar.

Wegmans is a pretty big outfit and I don’t know what people perceive of them elsewhere, but here they are pretty much the de facto standard for craft beer quality and availability. I’m not sure there’s a close second place. Now there is a distributor who handles train loads of import beers, but unfortunately there you have to purchase by the case. I’ve had some pretty harsh lessons in being adventurous with Off the Wall beers by the case. Our store locally since shortly after it was built has had a section completely devoted to beer and wine and they take it pretty seriously. Since the last time I was there which is probably about a year ago, they’ve now moved the entire section to the center of the store. It was in a purpose-built location to begin with but they’ve turned that into a cafe and now the beer and wine is hidden in the center of the place.

Ayinger was actually one of the brands I went looking for but they didn’t have any today. That’s not to say they won’t have it later. But odds are I would have to buy a case or something like that because I have no idea where I could find it around here. There is certainly no bar that has bottled beer like that.

I have never seen nor been in a Wegman’s, but I’m sure there are similar large chains here. Those are not where I shop for beer.