Guys: I made a pale ale today with 47.5% Avangard Pale Malt, 47.5% Wheat and 5% C60. There were 2 ounces of hops added to the WP too. I boiled vigorously but I did not see as much of a hot break as I did last week with the helles (80% pils). Will pilsner create more “hot break” than regular 2-row or wheat? I was expecting to see it but did not. I also checked the pH with about 15 minutes left and it was 5.25. I added 1ml of 88% lactic acid and when I was transferring to the fermenter I grabbed a sample and to my surprise it was 5.23. So it looks like I would need more. I already use about 6ml of acid between my strike and sparge… is there a limit to how much lactic acid should be used? I thought it was 1ml per gallon before you would have a negative flavor impact and I brew with a total of 7.5 gallons and I used 7ml of acid today between strike, sparge and kettle. Thanks & cheers.
AFAIK, hot break is dependent on protein content and pH.
Higher boil pH = bigger more clumpy break. It also has better hop isomerization, and faster DMS removal. Bigger break flocs faster and better = clearer wort, and beer.
Low boil pH = the opposite.
Higher finishing boil pH >5.1 = finings not working optimally. Finings also need to be added at the proper time(which there is).
TLDR: Boil higher, knockout lower.
Interesting. Thanks again. The pH of this beer was on the lower side but surprisingly even when I made a kettle addition of acid it barely had an impact (5.25 to 5.23) so I’ll have to fine-tune that a little better next time.
‘Higher’ and ‘lower’ are kinda obscure measurements. Higher/lower than what?
Sorry, I assumed we all knew boil ph’s, thats my fault. Good call out.
5.6 being on the high end, 5.1 on the low.
Closer to 5.6 = higher
Closer to 5.1 = lower
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Buffering of the wort is what impacts this. Normally this means the beer has a decent amount of hardness (temporary or permanent), that is buffering that ph shift.
A water that is made to have a pale ale type profile, will take more acid than say a straight RO water to make pH shift.
Also, you are the only one can answer the lactic taste threshold question.
My water has relatively modest numbers except for bicarb… that’s 140ppm. With 4ml of acid in my mash I can get my mash pH into the 5.3 to 5.4 range. But this past Saturday was the first time I made a kettle addition of acid so that was new. I expected to see the finished pH around 5.0 but it was 5.23. When I measured the pH with 15 minutes left in the boil it was 5.25 which is why I said it was on the lower end. So it sounds like I should get my mash pH correct and possibly get my sparge pH into a good range but maybe keep it a little higher so the boil pH would be more in the 5.5 range and THEN attempt to get it down closer to 5.0 prior to adding whirfloc or this Kick Carageenan I have been using. I have decent control over all of that but it’s absolutely something I have not done… at least on purpose.
+1. I can attest to that. I can add 1/8 tsp of 10% phosphoric acid to 5 gal distilled water (pre strike) and the pH drops like a brick because there’s nothing to buffer it.
I’ll have to be a little more heavy handed with my water but I think it’s manageable.
Guys: I’m sharing some info from today’s brew session. I made my Bordertown Dark Lager. SRM of maybe 12-14. I got my mash pH to 5.42 and left it there. I also added slightly less acid to my sparge (usually about 2ml and this was maybe 1¾ml. I did this to keep the boil pH in the mid 5s). When I took the pH of the sparge it was 5.12. I’m really not sure how that’s possible since I used less acid but the beer is dark so maybe the dark grains lowered the pH naturally. I thought of raising the pH with baking soda and decided against it. I boiled and checked the pH of the boil with about 10 minutes left… 5.27. That means I boiled a little too low. I added 1.25ml of acid (more than last week) and my final wort pH only went to 5.23. That part is stumping me. I can control the boil pH but how can 1.25ml of acid basically not make a dent in the wort’s pH? I did not get the giant break material “flakes” but the wort did drop super bright and I got crystal clear wort into the fermenter. Also, I did not use the boil BTB addition today… does BTB lower pH? It’s a tannic acid so I’ll assume YES. More research is needed.
It would seem to me that BtB would have an negligible effect on pH.
I agree. I think I even remember discussing it with Joe Formanek.
Thanks guys. I feel like I need to use less acid in the mash and sparge to keep the boil kettle pH around 5.5 and then use MORE acid during the boil to get it closer to 5.0. I realize that the drop in pH from acid is not linear… So adding 2ml instead of 1ml is not necessarily going to “double” the pH-dropping power… it could be more than that so I am taking this slowly so I don’t end up making a batch of vinegar. No brewing this weekend as all of my kegs are full but I will probably be making another gold lager in 2 weeks and I will see what happens.
Best of luck to you, good chum! Don’t drink too much now…
An update: I started using Biofine about 5 weeks ago. When the beer was ready to transfer to the keg (at basement temps), I injected about 30ml of Biofine into the tubing prior to starting the transfer. The Biofine would hit the bottom of the keg and the beer would be transferred on top, mixing well with the beer. Every one of the beers I sampled where I used Biofine is really, really cloudy. One of those kegs is about half full. Another has had about 10 beers tapped from it. Others have been sampled with a cobra tap. Can anyone see a scientific reason why the Biofine would not work? Something in my water or something with my processes? I am in the process of making a big batch of gel solution to see if I can clear these kegs up. I tried a similar Biofine-like product years ago and had the same results. Cheers guys.
One thing I can think of is that you are transferring the beer at room temp. When I transfer, my beers are at 33-35* and I transfer beer on top of the biofine which was added to purged kegs before transfer. I can’t say without a doubt that may be your issue. I have only used biofine when beer has been cold crashing for a while so I can’t say for sure that is the reason yours is not clearing. Since Ive been using BF every beer has been crystal clear.
I definitely thought of that. My gel solution applications work better when the beer is cold too. But I talked with a few people who also use the Biofine on basement temp beer and they said their beer clears. If that’s all it is then I can’t blame the Biofine.
Another update: I added gel solution to SIX kegs over the weekend. I was drinking one of those beers yesterday and the beer is noticeably clearer now. I assume that there are various things at play here (boil strength, possibly a pH issue, adding a fining agent when the beer is not COLD, etc) but my conclusion is that the beer needs to be cold (in my case) to get better clarity from a fining agent whether it’s gel or Biofine. I have two beers in fermenters now and I’m going to bypass the Biofine on these and just keg the beers, chill them and add a gel solution and see how they come out.