I think you’re gonna had to define what you mean by “artificially low” temps. Do you mean anything other than conventional room temp, say 70F or so? Since we have so many ways to control fermentation temp now, does it really matter? I can easily ferment at any temp from 35 (yeah, not really fermentation temp) up to 100F, so why not take advantage of that to control yeast character?
We ferment in freezers, Inkbird temp controlled. Our Fermenters have thermo-wells, so we get accurate readings of the beer temp.
I have fermented in the mid to upper 30’s before.
My S-04 is chugging along very happily at 56 F.
If that is an internal temperature, then yes, it qualifies as an artificially low temperature for an ale yeast. If it is an ambient temperature, then we have no idea as to what the internal temperature is in the fermentation. Fermentation is an exothermic process; therefore, internal and ambient temperature often differ.
Yes, with the thermo-well, we get internal temp readings. Not ambient temp.
Artificial? Not sure what you mean, as the Fermentis website lists the temp range for the S-04 as 59 F - 68 F. I like to ferment my ales a bit cooler.
The S-04 is quite happy at 56 F.
I think anything outside the range listed on the package should be considered [artificially] low or high. In this case S-04 should be good to go anywhere between 53.6-77F (ideally 59-68F). Skyler’s recommendation of “58-64*F” falls in that range nicely.
With regards to ferment temps, we have always gone on the cold side, especially with lagers, employing temps that would be considered at the bottom extreme of the yeast’s range, and sometimes even a few degrees below that.
The results have always been stellar. But that’s just my personal data point (s), going back to 1990.
It sounds like you do not like ale flavors. That is okay. Lager appears to be your thing. However, Saccharomyces cerevisiae should not need to be subjected to what are lager fermentation temperatures to produce a desired result. That is the message I want to drive home to up and coming brewers who now think that they need a fermentation chamber to keep ale fermentations below the normal ale temperature band. In essence, this practice is what I was talking about when I said that amateur brewers have gotten into the habit of tricking a yeast culture into doing the task at hand instead of picking the correct culture for the job at hand. Every ale yeast culture that we have today was selected under pressure over a period of hundreds of years before the invention of mechanical refrigeration, which means that most perform well in the 18C (65F) to 22C (72F) range, internal (the Kviek cultures take the lower and upper temperature bounds to a new limit). It was mechanical refrigeration and the introduction of a pure yeast culture (Carlsberg Underhefe No.1) combined with the Carlsberg flask that ushered in the lager revolution and modern brewing, which pretty much wiped out ale brewing in the United States at one point. I guess what I saying is that if one wants squeaky clean beers, one should stick with lager brewing and cryotolerant yeast strains like the Saaz family of lager strains. While there are neutral to a point strains of Saccharomyces cerevisiae like BRY-96 and all of its descendents, they still produce above taste threshold esters.
Fermentis states the higher of the two temperature ranges (i.e., 59-68F) on their packaging. A fermentation temperature of 15C/59F is low for an ale yeast strain. I have never encountered any published data from a reputable source that states that this culture should be used at (53.6F). Fermenting at an internal temperature of 13.33C/56F tells me that a person does not like ale flavors. That is okay, but it sends the wrong message to new brewers. It tells brewers to pick a yeast culture out of convenience, not brewing performance. We currently have more yeast cultures available to us than we have ever had. Liquid cultures are significantly easier to use than they were in the past. Pitching a Wyeast smack pack directly into wort after it had swelled used to be a very iffy proposition with a lag times measured in days, not hours. I am absolutely certain that there is a culture that will produce anyone’s desired results in what are considered to be normal temperatures for a species or a family within a species. For British ale cultures, we are talking 18 to 22C, maybe as low as 16C, internal. British ale cultures are not meant to produce squeaky clean beer. They are all pretty much estery to a point. A few of the cultures I obtained directly from England were so estery and POF+ that they were almost indistinguishable from Belgian cultures. We know that at least one Belgian culture originated in Great Britain. That culture was isolated from a bottle of McEwan’s Scotch Ale by the famous brewing scientist Jean DeClerk. It is used today to ferment Duvel. Commercial brewing in Belgium only dates back to the mid-nineteenth century. It dates back to much earlier in England, which gives credence to Northern Brewer’s assertion that a lot of styles that we associate with Belgium more than likely have roots in England.
It’s comforting to know that as many things that change through the years some things stay the same.
You are correct…ale flavors do little or nothing for me. The closest thing would be a Kolsch, which we find pleasing especially on a hot summer day.
The exception would be the Fuller’s London Porter that I made, for my wife. That is a fine beer. Not fruity, fairly crisp in nature. Wyeast London Ale was used, and fermented at 66 F.
Clean, crisp Euro-Lagers are my preference.
What’s wrong with bready? And what does bready taste like? Bread dough? Fresh baked bread?
And that’s why my temp is 56 F.
Wyeast states that the low end for 1007 is 55F. My choices for temp are experience driven.
When I think “bready,” I think the yeasty flavor that fresh bread can have.
Yeah, I think that’s a good description.
Are there commercial examples that would exhibit this flavor?
Most people I know really like the taste of fresh baked bread. Especially my late mother’s home made dinner rolls. Not sure I have ever experienced this in any beer.
Stand by…I’ll be the first one to let you know how this S-04 performed!
Sounds like Skyler’s is as well. It’s cool how we all have our experiences and likes/dislikes.
Admittedly you know exponentially more about yeast (and probably brewing in general) than I do. …and I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said here except the two highlighted portions. The first: I quoted the temp range straight off the package. The second: I believe the mfr should be considered a reputable source.
I think someone calls this a single data point.
It is exactly. And that and my experience all are I need for my own use. I’m not out to prove anything. Just make beer the way I like.
If we look at the original fermentation temperature range, it is 53.6 to 77F, as you mentioned. If 53.6 is the lower bound and 77 is the upper bound, then 53.6 + 77 / 2 = 65.3F is the mid-point of the temperature range.
Bread made from pure culture yeast has a particular flavor of yeastiness that we associate with freshly baked bread that doesn’t exist in sourdough and sometimes not with pure cultures made with a poolish rather than pouring dried yeast directly into the dough. I think of the dried yeast smell as like dried pasta in a cardboard box which kinda carries into the bread–like when you open the box of boxed mac and cheese.
S04/Nottingham exhibits it the most. London Ale 3 has it a little as do some other English strains.