I guess I should have been more specific. It doesn’t metabolize maltotriose as much as say US-05 or W34/70. I usually get 70-75%AA from S-04.
I spoke too soon…the Porter is actively fermenting still, just much slower activity than when it first took off.
Probably another 7 to 10 days and it will be ready. I’ll bet we get 70%+ when it is done. My wife is quite happy with it now.
Great coffee, caramel, and chocolate flavors coming through. Very smooth, not fruity at all.
awesome chart
Yes, an absolutely awesome chart. Cool colors, with a nice graphic display. But we are having some difficulty parlaying the chart data into our real world brewing experience, and flavor profiles.
Without definition of the terms and nomenclatures used, it tells us nothing.
its remarkable how similar s189 and 34/70 are.
34/70 looks pretty close to US-05, too
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The chart is eye catching, and a good graphic display.
However, I’m still trying to determine exactly what the bar graph tells us in terms of the end taste of the beer.
Example, maltotriose…
Maltotriose is a carbohydrate comprising three linked (alpha 1,4) glucose molecules and is an important fermentable sugar in wort. Maltotriose is generated during mashing as a result of the enzymatic breakdown of starches. In an all-malt wort, maltotriose typically accounts for about 15% to 20% of the total carbohydrate content. So-called hydrolyzed starch syrups (also known as glucose syrups), usually made from corn or wheat, also contain maltotriose produced from starches that are converted by extraneous enzymes into a mix of various fermentable and nonfermentable sugars. Most brewer’s yeasts can metabolize maltotriose, but they do so only after all the more easily absorbable sugars, such as glucose and maltose, have been consumed.
So exactly how does this translate to the end product and flavor profile?
And can someone here tell us what maltotriose tastes like? Inquiring beer consumers have a right to know!
Yeast metabolize the different wort sugars in different ways. To consume the disaccharide sucrose, the yeast utilizes an enzyme called invertase, which works outside the cell to hydrolyze the molecule into its components — glucose and fructose. The glucose and fructose molecules are then transported through the cell wall and metabolized inside the cell. Conversely, maltose and maltotriose are transported into the cell first, and then are broken down into glucoses by the enzyme maltase. Even though the enzyme for both sugars is the same, maltose is typically consumed first, indicating that the cell wall transport mechanism for the two sugars is different. Maybe maltotriose is too big to get through the maltose door!
The take-home message is that all fermentable sugars are broken down into monosaccharides like glucose before being utilized by the yeast, and that yeast evidently prefer to eat their sugars one course at a time. This has big implications for wort formulation in our pursuit of new recipes and unique styles.
The Brown got packaged today. I got only 68% from S-04, not sure what to make of that. The sample from the hydrometer tasted fine so no worries there. Should be ready to drink by the middle of next week. I’ll be looking hard for that bready thing.
The Brown got packaged today. I got only 68% from S-04, not sure what to make of that. The sample from the hydrometer tasted fine so no worries there. Should be ready to drink by the middle of next week. I’ll be looking hard for that bready thing.
My sample tasted great, at 4.86% ABV. Still another 7 days to go.
Bready? Not even a hint. None. Period.
Hi guys, sorry I’m late to the party.
I’ve used S-04 exactly 4 times in the past 3 years. I don’t get bready or doughy or yeasty from it, but really just malty, nutty, toasty. Tastes pretty clean to me, low non-descript fruitiness, and tends to accentuate the malt in my experience. Some might actually say it’s a little TOO clean for an English yeast and I would tend to agree.
My fermentation temperatures, I’ll look them up… 63 F (constant), 57-67 F (pitched cool then ramped), 63-68 F (ramped), and “low 60s” for the last one. The one that turned out the best, a very tasty Scottish 60/-, was the one pitched cool at 57 F then ramped up.
My attenuation has always been 77-78% except just one time was only 58% for no reason I could figure – odd. That was the one I really liked that was pitched cool. But it just happened the one time. Mash parameters were about 154 F for anywhere from 20 minutes to 120 minutes, guess I played around a bit… and yet they still always attenuated the same. Pretty amazing to me.
FWIW, this all reminds me VERY much of Nottingham. I have used Notty a ton, and it always gives attenuation of exactly 77-78%, regardless of mash parameters, pretty clean, all the same stuff really. Upon this realization now, maybe I should run a side-by-side sometime.
I don’t understand the dislike for either of these yeasts, they are both quite good, solid performers. If anything, too clean. I think I get a little peach from Notty when fermented too cool, similar to US-05. Haven’t got that from S-04. I can’t even describe the fruitiness from S-04. It has esters but non-distinctive. I guess maybe I haven’t fermented warm enough for them to really come out much.
So that’s my experience for whatever it’s worth. Cheers all.
S04 does not ferment maltotriose.
FG will be 3-4 points higher than other yeasts.
All it says basically is that S-04 attenuates slightly less than other yeasts like US-05, the Belgians, and the lager yeasts, which is well known even without the graph. But in my experience it still gets 77-78%, which is no slouch either to be sure.
Actually I’m surprised by T-58, looks like that one struggles to eat complex sugars like maltotriose similar to S-33 and the likes of Windsor and London.
In response to some of your other comments… maltotriose tastes like nothing meaningful. In my view it just serves to keep the FG high and the ABV low. That is all.
Denny,
Same reason I don’t like S-04. I use Notty on higher gravity brews but for browns & porters I like Windsor.
Thanks for your well written feedback.
This is my first go with S-04, and it is performing very much like Wyeast London Ale in overall flavor profile.
A bit on the clean side, with very little if any fruitiness in the flavor. It does allow the malt to come through.
As stated, the ferment temp has been 56 degrees.
My experience is very much similar to yours; especially the attenuation I get from S-04. It’s a very consistent yeast and I actually find it to be quite neutral.
Is that attenuation regardless of recipe?
Indeed. One of my S-04 beers was an Imperial Brown Ale, 77% attenuation and almost 10% ABV. Another was a partial mash with extract (and NON-hazy) IPA about 6.5% ABV. Both of those included some crystal malt. And finally a standard JZ BCS cream ale about 5% ABV. So yeah, all over the place. Mash parameters simply DO NOT MATTER with the S-04 yeast in my experience, at least not in a standard conventional sense. And same for Notty where I have much more experience with many many styles.
EDIT: Or were you talking about maltotriose? Attenuation can vary quite a bit with the yeasts that don’t handle maltotriose very well. In those cases the mash parameters seem to be very important, like opposite end of spectrum as far as that goes.
All of the lager strains on that graph belong to the Frohberg family. Why? Becasue Saaz lager strains tend to be maltotriose challenged. I recently read a fermentation research publication where the author claimed that most industrial lager breweries switched over to Frohberg strains during the twentieth century because Frohberg strains have superior fermentation performance. One of the holdouts is Carlsberg. That explains why the yeast cultures available to amateur brewers that were assumed to be Saaz strains are grouping genetically with the Frohberg strains.
It would appear that the first 5 (or 6) yeasts on the chart (L TO R) are all very close in performance. Only a point or two separates them, which is most likely non-distinguishable taste wise. It’s not until you get to the right hand side where the performance is all over the place, with large numbers separating each yeast.
But that’s just my single-data-point observation. Your eyes might vary.
That might be true if fermentation of these specific sugars were the only variable responsible for “taste”. Fortunately there are thousands if not millions of other variables at play.