Indeed.
But I always pitch a full pack regardless what the calculator says. That’s my concern…I’m over pitching on most beers, sometimes by 5g.
Have you tried following the calculator’s recommendations to see if you can taste a difference?
Just for a point of reference I took a lager yeast out 25 re-pitches over about 2 years, until I felt I shouldn’t push it much further and frankly wanted to try a different yeast variety…the yeast held up admirably (WLP 800) fwiw. Good O2 and yeast nutrient kept it running smoothly.
I like to get a yeast up and running and then use it in subsequent batches without actually ‘storing’ it. So it’s in the fermenter, I transfer and save the yeast in a sanitized flask and it’s in the fridge for a VERY short time… like a day or two and then it gets repitched. I take a small sample from that prior batch just to make sure everything seems okay. Occasionally I might pick up an unusual flavor or aroma and wonder if I should repitch. This 2124 is working now in a gold lager and then it’s going one more round in a sort of Vienna Lager and then its jersey will be retired and it’s on to Novalager.
Nope, not once. 
I suppose I’ll have to try it at some point. I use BRY-97 a lot and I’m not sure that’s the yeast that will really show a difference. I mean, it’s not a very expressive yeast.
As a 3 gallon brewer myself and someone who uses dry yeast exclusively, I determined some time ago through trial and error that 2/3 of a packet (7.3 grams or 7.6 grams for Fermentis) for my standard ABV beers was the right amount. I vacuum seal any remainder. This SOP eliminates the yeast pitch issue for me.
Thanks for that.
For clarification, assuming a standard beer, is that what is needed for a proper fermentation or is that the amount that gives you the best yeast character? Maybe both…
But, I use BRY-97 a lot and since it’s so clean, I question whether it matters if I pitch right to the cell or overpitch by a mile. It’s likely to be clean regardless. Now if I’m using London, or S-04, or Munich….pitch rates might matter a whole lot more??
Personally, I don’t think it makes a difference. I brew 3 gallon batches exclusively. I always pitch a full packet of dry yeast. I use Bry-97, Verdant, S-04, Diamond, 34/70, Novalager. All seem great to me.
I have used Windsor, London, Nottingham also. I don’t think I am missing any yeast character.
PS. I typically use a packet for 3 batches; pitch dry yeast once and then use the slurry twice. That keeps the cost very low. After three batches I am usually ready to move on to a different yeast. I usually brew lager, ale, lager, ale… So, I have two yeasts active at a time.
I just ran across this regarding pitch rate and overpitching. Hope it’s useful …20+ years ago, the late Homebrew Digest did their Fornite of Yeast, where Dr. Clayton Cone of Lallemand answered questions. Even back then, I was thinking about pitch rate., so I asked the following…
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:00:15 -0500
From: “Rob Moline”
Subject: Dr. Cone Responds- Yeast Flavours- Denny Conn
Dr. Cone Responds- Yeast Flavours- Denny Conn
Dr. Cone,
First, thank you so much for giving us some of your time.
My question concerns yeast growth as it relates to flavors in beer. I have read several articles mentioning that yeast growth is important to flavor production in beer, and that the amount of yeast growth is related to the amount of yeast pitched. My own completely unscientific experiments have lead me to believe that I produce more "interesting’ beers when I, for instance, repitch only part of the yeast slurry from a previous batch rather than the entire amount. The conventional wisdom in the homebrew world seems to be to use the entire previous slurry to produce short lag times. Is there a relationship between yeast growth and the flavors produced in beer? Is it better to pitch an entire previous yeast slurry, or is there a benefit to using a large, but not entire, amount of slurry? I apologize for the vagueness of the question, but I have no way to quantify the exact amounts I’ve been using. It’s simply either “all” or “part”.
Thank you again.
Denny Conn
Denny Conn,
Ester and other flavor component production or synthesis is a complex subject because there are so many variables taking place at the same time. You are right, ester production is related to yeast growth but not in the way you might think. The key element to yeast growth and ester production is acyl Co-A. It is necessary for both yeast growth and ester production. When it is busy with yeast growth, during the early part of the fermentation, it is not available for ester production. Ester production is directly related to biomass production. Everything that increases biomass production (intensive aeration, sufficient amount of unsaturated fatty acids, stirring) decreases ester production. The more biomass that is produced the more Co-enzyme A is used and therefore not available for ester production. Anything that inhibits or slows down yeast growth usually causes an increase in ester production: low nutrient, low O2. It has been noted that a drop in available O2 from 8 ppm down to 3 ppm can cause a four fold increase in esters.
Stirring in normal gravity decreases ester production. Stirring in high gravity increases ester production. CO2 pressure in early fermentation decreases ester production. Taller fermenters produce less esters than short fermenters. High temperature early in fermentation decreases ester production. High temperature later in fermentation increases ester production. Low pitching rate can result in less esters.
There are other flavor components such as higher alcohol that have there own set of variables. Stirring increases production of higher alcohols. CO2 pressure does not effect the production of alcohol. Amino acid levels in the wort effect the production of higher alcohols. Most of the higher alcohol is produced during the growth phase (exponential phase) of the yeast. I am sure that there are many other variables. I am also sure that there are beer makers that have experienced the very opposite with each of the variables.
Pitching rates depend on several factors:
(1) The speed in which you wish the fermentation to take place. Some professional brew master are in more of a hurry than others; desired beer style, shortage of fermenter space. Pitching rates would vary as a means to increase or decrease the total fermentation time. 10 X 10/6th cell population for normal fermentation rates. 20 X 10/6th or more for a quick turn around.
(2) Temperature control. If lack of refrigeration is a problem, the fermentation needs to be spread out over a longer period by pitching with less yeast.
(3) Health of the pitching yeast. If the pitching yeast has not been stored under ideal conditions (4C for less than one week) then larger pitching rate must be done to compensate for the deteriorate of the yeast. Increased pitching rates has its limits in trying to compensate for poor storage conditions.
(4) When all other variables are under control you can use variations in pitching rates to achieve certain flavor profile that are of interest to you.
Conventional wisdom regarding pitching rate can lead to problems. During each fermentation cycle the yeast will increase in size about three times, so if you use all the yeast from the previous batch you will soon be pitching with a huge amount of yeast. Professional brewers usually re-pitch with about 25% of the yeast from the previous batch. Proper handling of the yeast during storage (4C and <7 days) will minimize any problem with long lag phase. Start with a fresh culture of yeast after about five recycles for bacteria control and or after 10 - 15 cycles for genetic drift purposes.
There are many who will say that they are proud of the fact that they have used the same yeast after over 100 cycles. More power to them. I wish that I could explain their luck. Good practices suggest frequent renewal with a fresh culture is a good policy.
Thank you for your very good question.
Clayton Cone
Wow, you not only saved a message from 20 years ago, you were able to locate it. I’m impressed!
There is a lot of information there, and I’m going to have to think about it a bit.
It’s both for me. My go-tos are S-04, US-05, Nottingham and Verdant and I’ve adopted my 2/3 packet for each with good results. I only deviate if I make an imperial whatever. I don’t harvest yeast because I don’t have the fridge storage capacity and my yeast cost is only about $2.70/batch.
Denny: Thanks for finding that and posting that. I read that while sitting on the edge of my seat. :D Indeed, 20+ years ago brewers mentioned using as much yeast as you can get, especially for lager fermentation. Some amount of time went by before the word started getting out that you could overpitch. Since it’s hard to know what you REALLY have in a stored container of slurry (amount of yeast cells, how many viable cells, how much trub/hop debris, etc) and in need of SOME kind of direction and instrumentation, I use a flask that is marked with milliliters and use the amounts originally mentioned in the Mr. Malty calculator which always fell between 180ml and 200ml for a 1.050 (ish) lager wort. I’m almost always in the “400ml of harvested slurry” range so I typically try to pitch half of that. No idea if it’s optimal or not but it seems to be close and the beers have been excellent. Thanks again… great stuff in that response.
It was important to me and I thought others might like the info. Remember, I’ve been at homebrew investigation/ testing for a long time.
OK, to circle back to the beginning, I no longer think the problem is overpitching. A while back I asked on the forum about krausen-free fermentations and was told, by someone whose opinion I respect, that the two main reasons were high fermentation temperature and overpitching. I had ruled out temperature so I thought the cause was overpitching. Now I don’t think that is it and there must be another factor at work. I have some ideas but it will be a couple of months before I can test them out. I’ll be using dry yeast for my next brews.
I’m still not sure I know what “symptom” you’re troubleshooting. I don’t know that I have ever heard anyone mention “krauesen-free” fermentations. I wouldn’t know if my fermentation is free of krauesen because the fermenter is in a fridge the whole time. I know you mentioned “estery” beer and to me that says that the fermentation temp is higher than you want. Also, I have to say that a beer that is fermented and was “overpitched” shouldn’t REALLY stand out as a bad beer, IMO. Maybe it could stand out but I have to assume that on some batches in the past I pitched more yeast than was necessary and maybe the beer wasn’t a perfectly-made beer but it was still a very good beer that I happily drank. Some of my best beers were a lager made with the fresh yeast (from the package) and pitched from the starter. This suggests healthy yeast and it also suggests that there were fewer cells in the wort at the start of the fermentation which means the yeast went through its various ‘flavor-producing’ phases. That discovery alone made me think that less yeast should be pitched when harvested slurry was in the picture.
i hear you, im increasingly interested in lagers with strong yeast flavour.
also, tbh wasnt sure what OP meant about “no krausen”.
could probably have an FAQ or template on how to post a help thread for people here. ie.
-yeast > pitch rate if known or relevant
-size of wort/beer
-any relevant nutrient additions or water profile
-hop amounts/ibus
-time periods
??
if someone just says “my beer has no krausen while fermenting” i dont know what that means at all
I’m envisioning the “foam” on the beer’s surface and a lack of it in this case. Ales seem to have a little more of this because of the temp and a lager fermentation is usually a little more subdued although there would be foam/krauesen in either case. If I just so happened to notice that there was no foam on the surface of the beer during fermentation, I don’t know that I would point to overpitching but that may just be me and my ignorance on the subject.
I’ll just beat this one point a little further: I remember a lager I made with 940 Mexican Lager yeast and it was my interpretation of Victoria Lager from Mexico… amber color, balanced, refreshing, etc. I got it on tap and just remember it being SO good. Everything about this batch of beer was perfect, IMO. When I checked my notes, turns out it was the first use of the 940 and I made a 1.5 liter starter (stirplate, btw) and pitched the entire contents of the starter. As time went on and I noted this or that batch as being particularly good, I would check my notes and sure enough it was the first run of the yeast… 2124, Omega Bayern, 940, 830, whatever. The subsequent batches (when slurry was used) weren’t subpar at all… they were very good… but not QUITE as good and I feel like there was a nuanced character in the beer that just pushed it over the top and I feel like it’s these flavors that the yeast produce in their various stages. Okay… sorry for the loosely-related tangent.
What it means in this case is that there is no krausen! I can see the surface of the liquid, with some bubbles here and there and some foam around the edges but no layer of foam that covers the whole surface. Krausening and top cropping are age old techniques that would not work if there was no krausen. My beer is good, but I know it could be better and I am wondering if the absence of a classic part of fermentation could be telling me that something is wrong.
You don’t add anything that inhibits foam production, do you? Wasn’t there something called Fermcap or something that helped keep explosive fermentations under control? I know that question sounds odd but now I’m grabbing at straws. Did you see/hear/read something that said that an overabundance of yeast would create a fermentation with less/no krauesen? I don’t know that I have ever heard of it. Also, would you have better/fuller krauesen when you added yeast that was not a part of an SNS starter? For reference, I had been a stirplate starter brewer for many years. When I read the SNS starter thread on this forum I made some SNS starters and they seemed to work just fine. I did not notice anything different really… not better beer or worse beer, not quicker activity from the yeast or delayed activity, etc. No real differences in any way so I can’t say I’m sold on it or that I don’t like it. But krauesen was not effected at all, as far as I know.
its all guessing until.more information. might be a cleaning/sanitizing agent you use or a lack of cleaning of the inside of the carboy (not assuming you dont keep it clean, just brainstorming!), what yeast(s) was it?, water profile.of your tap/what you use?, does the finished beer have head retention issues or head at all? FG issues? an answer just requires. more info.