That sounds about right. I mash in with 15 g CaSO4 in water that already contains 18 ppm Ca and 15 ppm SO4, which gives me something like 109 ppm Ca and 235 ppm SO4 in the finished 10 gal brew. I approached that amount qualitatively: Just kept adding another tsp until it tasted right. I’m pretty sure I don’t want to go higher on a regular beer.
I know some brewers that think all you need in water is some gypsum and calcium carbonate, but in my experience the brew will benefit from a complete mineral profile. Sodium and chloride ions are deprecated, but a little salt makes anything taste better. There are brewers in this state who use ridiculous water profiles, and one that uses untreated soft spring water. And their beer suffers for it: There’s a hole in the taste as the beer goes down. It just vanishes! And it doesn’t leave you wanting more.
New day, fresh palate… I still get IT, and I do think 200ppm SO4 is probably too much for me. But what I was getting as papery yesterday, is coming off more like peanut today… almost earthy. And so I think it’s borderline too much SO4 combined with the hops. This was 50g each of EKG Fuggels and Target as late hops
Yeah, those are earthy hops, and the flavor effects of water and everything else in beer is a synergy, isn’t it, the whole is more than the sum of the parts. It’s total perception you care about, and now you know how your palate perceives dryness.
One take away… If you enter a pale hoppy high SO4 beer, don’t be surprised if it gets dinged for oxidation. It’s so similar I could easily see a judge thinking that’s what it is
Sulphate is balanced by chloride (what’s your Cl level in ppm?) and sweetness from malt, so there isn’t really a personal limit as such - what tastes right depends on how much caramel/crystal malt is used and how much chloride is in the water.
1060 OG is not typical of British IPA. Over here IPAs are about 4.5% abv, but 1060 will give you more than 6% abv. That’s really an American IPA, which is a valid style but stronger than the British version. I’m not sure what SO4 level would suit a 6+ abv beer, but the table on the Murphy’s website applies to weaker beers.
Thanks, I’ll look back on this later I’m sure. I’m not ever going to get a real fresh English IPA. So I’ll never really know what they are like. I don’t try to brew “to style”, but loosely refer to my beers by the closest style. Otherwise how else would we describe them.
You cause an interesting thought though. These recipe software deals that look at OG, FG, ABV, and IBU, maybe ought to also look at hop type, yeast type, and water composition before giving you the little green check mark.
That just got me reconsidering my above stated thoughts about further increasing SO4 in this weekend’s Pilsner. Where in the past I thought I had not enough SO4 maybe I just had too much chloride. May go for something like Yellow Balanced in Bru’n Water. I want dry but fresh tasting, and balance might be the key to getting the right SO4 character. In the days of using my natural water, it would be like 1:3 SO4 to Cl, and my last few RO batches were almost flipped at 2.3:1. Crisp, but not so fresh tasting. Kinda dusty and dull. I’ll aim to even them out and keep both well under 100. If ratio is really important and not just quantity, and I think it is.
You cause an interesting thought though. These recipe software deals that look at OG, FG, ABV, and IBU, maybe ought to also look at hop type, yeast type, and water composition before giving you the little green check mark.
I couldn’t agree more with this. My normal IPA is an English type. I can’t run my SO4 up in the 250-300 range. I have tried the same water profile and it changes my perception drastically with yeast choice alone. I have always split batches. I split my last IPA with my normal favorite 007, 1056, and 1028 w 250 SO4. This was a brew after doing the same recipe with 150. I love a good IPA, but at 250+, it causes a mineral harshness that I do not like, especially in the 1028. So I totally agree with your thoughts on yeast. I too realize there are a lot of factors that go in the this, but for me, I’m not going over the 150 line.
Everyone finds their sweet spot I guess.
As Charles has probably seen, I’m routinely castigated on the British forums for the modest mineralization that the Bru’n Water profiles suggest. As noted in that Murphy’s table, they recommend far higher mineralization than I’ve found to be enjoyable. I guess it’s a product of what you’re used to.
Makes one wonder if the use of tannins like BrewTan-B is caused by the promotion of low calcium levels (as compared to the levels used by the British).
Paper is astringency. Usually brought on by lack of pH control. 90% time it is lack of sparge acidification unless using RO water. I dig the SO4 “bite and thickness” and IIRC Martin described it as “crunk”. My IPA’s get 300ppm and Terry Foster advocates much higher than that in his ale recipes (650)… That said, mash and sparge pH is 5.4. Water treatment is 2 phases. Proper pH FIRST, then “season to taste”. Alot of guys get it backwards because gypsum can reduce pH (but usually not enough and then acid must be used). If you have pH dialed in and still have some astringency, you need to look into polyphenol reduction (polyclar) or good old fashioned longer lagering for it to drop naturally. As a BJCP I am gonna ding you if crunk is missing (save and except for NEIPA)
Gallotannins are known to chelate any free divalent metals in the wort, including Ca and Mg. I’ve seen research articles that showed something like 20 ppm Ca reduction. I suppose that we should be considering this effect when using gallotannin products.
On jimsbeerkit? Be careful discussing water chemistry on there, it can get heated.
My ales tend to be around 170ppm sulphate. Tastes normal to me. There might well be significant difference in sulphate levels in British and American beers, but very few home brewers over here actually bother to check. Those that do tend to use American water calculators as there aren’t any good British tools online. Suits me as I brew more APAs than British bitters. I’ve never really nailed the British style, not sure why.
Did you see the following Brulosophy test in which tasters couldn’t distinguish 200ppm sulphate from 51ppm? Tastes the same possibly because the sulphate to chloride ratio was equal.