Water Question

General Homebrew Discussion
1

I am having trouble deciphering the comment below. Is it recommending 100ppm Ca in the mash or in the final beer?

“Firestone Walker runs all their brewing liquor through a reverse osmosis system. They then add back calcium to reach 100 ppm for yeast health and to avoid beer scale formation on equipment. This is done with calcium chloride for malt focused beers and with equal parts calcium chloride and calcium sulfate for hop-focused beers.”

Source: https://byo.com/wp-content/uploads/woocommerce_uploads/Firestone-Walker-clones-3.pdf

2

They are talking about their brewing liquor, so I would interpret that to mean that they add calcium to achieve 100 ppm in their brewing liquor, i.e. the mash.

3

yup, agree with how i’ve heard the term brewing liquor used before

4

I agree with this interpretation.

Disclaimer: Any comment I add is simply the way I brew beer. I am not paid or sponsored by anyone. There are certainly other ways that can be equally effective which other brewers may contribute. This is what I’ve found that works for me using my equipment and processes so I offer this for your consideration. YMMV

5

I would take it that way too.  It’s interesting and I’d love to hear Martin’s take on that.  Awhile back there was a conversation or TEN about this and I remember someone saying that 60ppm of Ca in the brewing water was good for almost all beers.  Someone else came along and said that nothing was going to happen with 60ppm of Ca in the water that wouldn’t happen with 50ppm of Ca in the water.  I have 34ppm of Ca in my source water (and more SO4 than Cl) so I usually add 3g of CaCl2 to the mash water for malt-focused beers (which is mostly what I brew) and I think I end up with around 65ppm of Ca in my water.

6

I interpreted the statement the same as all y’all :slight_smile: Thanks for the inputs.

I have 22 ppm Ca in my water out of the tap. I use that with Lactic to control PH a lot for malty lagers. I started doing this per advice from Majorvices who did the same at a brewery close to my house.

But, I am brewing an 805 clone and want to be close to the original. So, I am going to treat this water with some Ca.

7

Agree with Ken on he interpretation of “brewing liquor”.  I normally don’t go any higher than 80 ppm of Calcium in my mash liquor.  Just my personal preference.  100 ppm isn’t going to hurt you but I just go a bit conservative on the calcium concentration and my beers come out fine.  Some beers have less than that but normally they are around 80 ppm.  The calcium also precipitates out oxalic acid in the mash as calcium oxalate which helps the enzymes in the mash do their job.  I will also defer to Martin’s expertise on this since he is the water expert.

8

My problem is with getting the Ca high enough but not busting the other so-called ‘rules’.

IOW: I routinely use 7 gal water in my 4.5 gal batches so 1.25 tsp CaCl gets me in the neighborhood of ~50 ppm Ca with ~90 ppm Cl in the mash.

If I increase to 1.5 tsp I end up slightly busting the 100 ppm Cl ‘rule’.

If I add 1 tsp gypsum to the 1.25 tsp CaCl I get a nice ~80 ppm Ca with a pretty close to balanced Cl:SO4 ~90:~85. Great for a balanced profile but that can break the ‘don’t use SO4 with with noble hops rule’ for those beers with noble hops.

This lands me in the ‘Some rules are just meant to be broken’ column.

This is why I normally use CaCl in malty styles (maybe a bit of gypsum), gypsum in bitter styles (maybe a bit of CaCl), and a combination of the two in some styles.

IOW: brewing is an art and science. Some pay too much attention to the science and less attention to the art. Hard and fast ‘rules’ tend to do that to me. I like to be the brewer in my brewery by trying to keep in mind the art.

Disclaimer: Any comment I add is simply the way I brew beer. I am not paid or sponsored by anyone. There are certainly other ways that can be equally effective which other brewers may contribute. This is what I’ve found that works for me using my equipment and processes so I offer this for your consideration. YMMV

9

Reality often astonishes theory

10

Are we really capped at 100ppm Ca?  I’ve seen recommended ranges of 50-150 (Palmer), undoubtedly varying by beer style and source water.

11

I was just talking with Wayne Wambles of Cigar City the other week and he was saying that in their Maduro they push some whackadoodle numbers for Sulfate and Chloride and overall mineral load. So as with all recommendations, may I recommend you use this grain of salt, roughly the size of Delaware?

12

No, we’re not. IIRC, too much will cause premature flocculation, but it’s a lot more than that.

13

I’ve found that Firestone Walker tends to produce British style beers and the 100 ppm calcium content and their reported calcium chloride/gypsum additions, seem to agree with that philosophy.  The malt-focused addition is likely to boost chloride into the 160 ppm range which is up there, but reasonable in those malty British styles.  The hop-focused additions result in about 120 ppm sulfate and 80 ppm chloride, which are actually modest for those styles.

100 ppm Ca in ales is no big deal, especially if you’re interested in producing British style ales.  Look no farther than the Pale Ale profile in Bru’n Water to find a high calcium profile that’s great for pale ales and west coast IPAs. But if you’re concerned with the minerality of the water overtaking your beer, then reducing the calcium content closer to the 50 ppm ale target might be desirable. For brewing delicate continental lagers, bringing that calcium target to 50 ppm or less, is going to be helpful in letting the malt do the talking.

14

I think they have pills for that.  :smiley:

Sorry.  So, so sorry.

15

If you just want to increase Ca without affecting Cl and SO4, you can use CaOH (pickling lime). It will raise your pH, so you need to account for that.

16

True …calcium hydroxide or calcium carbonate …but I chose a while back to simplify my approach to brewing.

Oh, I had a box full of all the salts I ‘needed’ to brew to style.  (sodium metabisulfate, calcium hydroxide, calcium carbonate, calcium chloride, calcium sulfate, magnesium sulfate, sodium chloride, sodium bicarbonate, ….).

I followed water recipes from all different sources. Used various spreadsheets. Fiddling with this only to throw that off and adjust here to screw up something over there. None of the spreadsheets agreed. None of the experts agree. Mash pH was all over the map. I had to add acids or lime to control it. And on, and on. Like a dog chasin’ his tail. But bottom line: I thought the beers sucked.

So, I gave up all that crap, quit spending so much time and concern about what water was supposed to be for certain styles, and chose one simple method. This move was influenced heavily by G Strong’s book Brewing Better Beer.

I choose to restrict myself to use of the two (CaCl and gypsum) for very specific reasons, alone or in combination, in RO water to get me where I want to go. I traded in time spent on spreadsheets, the confusion, the box full of salts, and meticulously measuring them on a gram scale for a set of teaspoons and BeerSmith’s water module to report ppm. It is 10x less PITA.

Admittedly, it might not be for everyone, but I sure like the outcome and it’s so much easier for me. Bottom line: the beers don’t suck.

(Sorry for high jacking your thread Tommy).

Disclaimer: Any comment I add is simply the way I brew beer. I am not paid or sponsored by anyone. There are certainly other ways that can be equally effective which other brewers may contribute. This is what I’ve found that works for me using my equipment and processes so I offer this for your consideration. YMMV

17

You might want to listen to this podcast from Master Brewers Assn. It blows this whole theory of chloride not exceed 100ppm. It turns out malt contributes @ 200ppm of chloride to the beer and also brings up sulfate levels.  It also mentions that chloride levels can be as high as 500ppm, above that it can cause yeast health problems  to stainless steel corrosion. Chloride/sulfate ratio is a myth. It’s likely that this ratio points more toward overall sulfate levels in the beer than any true ratio.

The levels of calcium in the hot liquor are to prevent the formation of beer stone, the yeast can use it too. The levels of calcium is strictly  referring to liquor/water levels, the overall level of the calcium in the beer or wort will be unknown due to the malt contributions of calcium.

18

Also keep in mind that pickling lime (Calcium Hydroxide)  will increase the pH of the brewing liquor.  I use it in lieu of chalk (Calcium Carbonate) since chalk getting chalk to dissolve in brewing liquor is a real PITA. Pickling lime will have the same effect on mash pH as chalk.

19

Several years back there was an interview with John Keeling when he was the head brewer at Fuller’s. He stated that Thier water comes from the London municipal supply. They add gypsum to get the Ca up to 100 ppm.

20

I’ve bounced this around with other brewers before and I always wonder about it.  If I made a beer with RO water and added 2g of CaSO4 to it and then made the same beer with the same water and added 2g of CaCl to it, wouldn’t the first one taste crisper and sharper and the second one taste smoother and maltier?  And if I added 1g of CaSO4 and 1g of CaCl to a third batch of the same beer with the same water wouldn’t it end up somewhere in the middle (more balanced)?  All that said, doesn’t it point to the fact that the Cl:SO4 ratio is something that brewers have to pay attention to?  I’ve heard people agree with what I just laid out and say “absolutely that would be true, but…”.  I once made a beer with a guy who wanted to learn how to brew and I was going to add CaCl and CaSO4 to the mash water and I believe I was distracted and added ALL CaSO4.  My water already leans towards SO4 so the final beer was VERY minerally, dry, crisp and harsh.  What am I missing on the ratio?

Also, sorry for the thread derailment.