It’s not that I don’t want to try, I just haven’t seen the need for an extra step. I should try and see if it makes any difference. So: One question, when you say 100ml slurry, do you mean vol of the thick slurry at the bottom, or the total volume when it’s swirled up into, say, 50/50 thick slurry and liquid? And second, do you see any real problem if I use my wort instead of a separate dme wort? I’m really open to the idea. Everything else I thought I knew seems to be wrong these days!
Well, just think of how thick the 100ml slurry is in a smack pack.
No magic about 1.040, it’s just what I do. I imagine anything up to 1.100 might work.
Maybe splurge and grab a fresh pitch from the store and try it out.
What I really like is options. So I can say, what I usually do works, but isn’t necessary, and on any given day, circumstances might favor one of a number of approaches. Whatever gets the result. As of tonight, I have a new quick and dirty default – don’t rinse, just pitch the slurry – and this vitality method, still simpler than either rinsing or a make-ahead starter. Great thing is I don’t have to try either just to prove it to myself. I know you and Denny have done that. I’ll see what looks like the best option next brew (10 days.) If there’s a lot of trub in the slurry, like you said, that won’t grow in a vitality starter! But I doubt I’ll keep doing the same old.
I’ve learned something today, my goal every day.
Sweet! For me, seeing others get “success” from an SNS or oxygenated or vitality starter is kind of validation that I’m not an outlier. But if it only worked for me, I’d keep doing it.
[quote=“klickitat jim, post:25, topic:27151, username:klickitat_jim”]
Sweet! For me, seeing others get “success” from an SNS or oxygenated or vitality starter is kind of validation that I’m not an outlier. But if it only worked for me, I’d keep doing it.
I have several mason jars of slurry in the fridge. If they are older then a month then i do a vitality just to make sure.
Hey, Jim! You’ve probably addressed this before, but do you use more slurry/smackers in your 1-1.5L vitality starter for lagers? I’m guessing by the results in your big ales it wouldn’t be necessary?
Nope, 1 smack pack
why not just make it even easier and use the native wort, i.e. the wort you’re brewing. I’ve been doing similar to what you do, just with the actual wort. during the runoff, divert 1-1.5l into a sanitized flask along with the measured yeast slurry, cover with foil, set in the fridge next to the main wort, swirl whenever i think of it. usually within 2-4 hours, its reaching krausen (usually when i swirl and it starts to erupt lol), so i then dump that into the main wort, aerate per usual. voila.
Cool. It’s not been boiled?
It’s not much trouble for me to make starters because once a year I can up enough 1.040 to last me a year.
Thanks, Jim!
Blatz, if you look up in the thread, that’s my idea more or less. Use some of my chilled wort while the fermenter cools the rest of the way to pitch temp (4-5 hours.) I think it’s simpler, but also I don’t want a liter of “foreign” wort in a light lager. In Jim’s big stouts and barley wines, not a concern.
not it has, I might not have communicated well in my previous post. Make your wort as you usually would. Chill. While running off, divert some of the wort to a flask as noted, etc.
only negative (for some) is that they like to be done-done-done with the batch once they complete their run off. I don’t mind this method, and I prefer to be dumping the actual batch into itself, rather than unhopped starter wort. it also gives me time to let the main wort settle and I can dump out the bottom any settled trub that made it through. I also start very early in the morning, so its usually pitching time mid afternoon, which isn’t a problem for me.
sorry I didn’t follow that was what you were doing. its a really good method for me and my timing/process as you mention.
Not sure what all the worry about foreign wort is. If I can get a 42 from 3 grand master judges on a Munich Helles using foreign wort, I’m convinced it’s not a concern. But, maybe using original beer wort would make it a 43?
Just make sure your starter wort is at or below target fermentation temp before you add your oxygen and yeast, and that it’s active when you pitch it to the main beer.
I’m all good with that, no doubt it works awesome. I’m lazy and impatient.
That temp part is the one thing I’m still thinking over. Normally when I repitch, the yeast is colder as it’s been in the fermentation fridge near freezing as the fermenter makes it from ~60°F (wort chiller) to 50°F (pitch.) That seems too cold to get it active, as would be the lagering freezer (29°F) or keezer (38°-40°F.) Room temp it would get active, then be knocked out at pitching. I still have some things to work out before this is a sure option for me, till then I’ll repitch 3-4 day old slurry. But Denny’ s convinced me not to bother rinsing.
One thing I like about the vitality idea for a lager is, it is in principle a lot like Darauflassen. Same goal, keeping yeast in the growth phase as long as possible, and similar method. Just that the two worts are in different proportions.
EDIT Other thing I don’t like about foreign wort, not that it’s foreign, I just don’t want to bother making a separate dme wort. I’m not a guy who cans a year’s worth of it, because I only make a starter once a year or so!
With lagers, I take my jar of canned 1.040 and put it in the fermentation chamber at 50F the night before brew day. Morning of brew day I oxygenate the starter and pitch my smack pack, leave it in the 50F fermentation chamber while I brew. Lager starters are always active at about 10-12 hrs. I think that slight extra time is largely due to the cooler wort having ability to retain co2 better. Meaning, it’s probably active just as soon as an ale pitch, but harder to see that activity.
I do this because I feel that once yeast is active temperature becomes more important. I don’t like the idea of dumping a 70F little starter of active yeast into full batch of beer wort that is 20° colder. I don’t want to shock it.
I have been doing this method for about 4 years, ales from 1.045 to 1.110, and lagers from 1.045 to 1.070. All with the same results. Initially, with lagers I would use two starters out of fear of not having enough yeast. But I quickly learned that was unnecessary.
Yep, I just have to find a 50°F spot. I’m not gonna get a mini fridge just to do this! Seemed so simple, now maybe not. I may have already optimized my procedures for my brewery.
How do you control fermentation temp?
Good old Johnson Controls thermostatic controller (switches power on and off to the fridge, which you keep at its coldest setting.) Got one on each freezer and fridge; if you saw the pics of my Speidel you can see the probe on the right side. So I control ambient temp. The controller allows a 4 degree swing because the temperature of liquid, with higher thermal mass, is slow to change; this keeps the temp in the fermenter (keg, etc.) perfectly steady without short cycling the compressor. I just bypass the controller (unplug it) to crash the wort to pitch temp or to crash the post ferment beer.