Vinnie teaches LODO

[Village_Taphouse]

@denny

Make the best beer possible, remember?  For me, it’s a balance of the 3.  I’m not gonna skip something if it means the beer sucks.  But we each get to decide what’s important and what’s not.

Right.  Occasionally I make a beer where something didn’t go as envisioned… an ester, a smidge of diacetyl, maybe hops that were past their prime.  I’m the first to notice and I will generally not recommend that beer to others.  I am [and should be] the most critical person of the beer I brew.  I have known a number of brewers who thought their clearly subpar beer was FANTASTIC!  I hope that doesn’t sound condescending but the brewer has to know whether the beer is right or not.  Consistently bad beer needs to be addressed, for sure.  Maybe a bit of searching, tweaking, troubleshooting.  That’s not always fun but it’s necessary.  Then once that’s figured out… back to the fun! 

[beersk]

@Village_Taphouse

@denny

Make the best beer possible, remember?  For me, it’s a balance of the 3.  I’m not gonna skip something if it means the beer sucks.  But we each get to decide what’s important and what’s not.

Right.  Occasionally I make a beer where something didn’t go as envisioned… an ester, a smidge of diacetyl, maybe hops that were past their prime.  I’m the first to notice and I will generally not recommend that beer to others.  I am [and should be] the most critical person of the beer I brew.  I have known a number of brewers who thought their clearly subpar beer was FANTASTIC!  I hope that doesn’t sound condescending but the brewer has to know whether the beer is right or not.  Consistently bad beer needs to be addressed, for sure.  Maybe a bit of searching, tweaking, troubleshooting.  That’s not always fun but it’s necessary.  Then once that’s figured out… back to the fun! 

Well, that’s the deal, if they think it’s great, then they’ll improve at their own rate. We all thought our beer was great years ago, then gradually we got better. Now I bet if we drank beers we thought were so great years ago, we’d think, hmm these need some tweaking. Or maybe not! But, like Denny says, best beer possible while having the most fun. Some people love the technical science side of things, whilst others are more artists. I’m a little bit of both, although I tried to be more science-y for a good couple of years. I’ve gradually gone back towards the center of the venn diagram of art and science.

[dbeechum]

@lupulus

Everybody that does this as a hobby brews this way.
No exceptions.
From LODO to triple decoctions to historical beers to Mr Beer kits.

I don’t know - I’ve seen some people making themselves absolutely miserable with what they’re trying to do in the hobby.

Having said that - as I’ve always said around people’s processes, including ones that don’t fit my needs - if it floats your boat, you do you. I don’t suspect many people light prayer incense prior to brewing like I do.

[denny]

@lupulus

@denny

@beersk

@Village_Taphouse

@beersk

These are all things I do as well. Being one of the early adopters to low o2 brewing, I enjoyed perceived benefits for a couple years, then just literally burnt myself out on brewing worrying about it all the time. It took the fun out of brewing. I still do some of the processes, and sometimes even still deoxygenate the water, but anymore, I don’t worry too much about it as my beer doesn’t last more than a couple months in the keg before it’s gone.
Also, once I found out that sauergut was a key flavor component to “That German Lager Flavor” I decided to stop pursuing it. I wasn’t getting those German flavors in my beers that I taste in commercial versions, so I said, screw it and went back to what I was happiest with. I don’t have the energy to start making my own sauergut.

Funny but I could have posted that myself although I probably was not one of the ‘early adopters of LO’.  I was doing more than I listed with BTB, trifecta mix, spunding, etc. and at some point I felt like my beers were going backwards.  I took a step back and looked closer at what I was doing and I kept the pieces that I thought worked and I simplified.  I also looked back on many batches I made prior to doing ANY low-oxygen steps and I was pretty happy with them.  So I still do the ones I listed, I made some simplifications with regard to pH throughout the process, I cut out trifecta and BTB altogether (my wort and beer only touch stainless and plastic so BTB is not necessary), I started getting some better clarity by using ClearZyme and my beers have been great lately.  Again, my old techniques may have been really bad… **splashing and stirring my way through the brewday and these steps maybe just got me to a better place but not really in line with true LO brewers. **

Maybe, probably, but I bet the differences weren’t that enormous as to give you pause. Maybe with hoppier styles, but you don’t really brew hoppy styles. I guess, in the end, maybe it isn’t about brewing the best possible beer, but rather finding the best possible process to continue the joy of homebrew. I don’t know, maybe that’s BS, just came to mind.

The best beer possible, with the least effort possible, while having the most fun possible.  For me, it’s all of those.  None takes precedence over the other.

Everybody that does this as a hobby brews this way.
No exceptions.
From LODO to triple decoctions to historical beers to Mr Beer kits.

Sent from my SM-G981U1 using Tapatalk

What way?

[majorvices]

well,  not to derail the topic but 45 minutes in so far … can’t say it’s been incredibly enlightening but it’s always nice to hear Vinnie talk. He’s such a great dude (yes, I have met him). I’m jealous of his wet mill and malt bottom angered into the tun is pretty awesome.

[alestateyall (tommymorris)]

@dbeechum

@lupulus

Everybody that does this as a hobby brews this way.
No exceptions.
From LODO to triple decoctions to historical beers to Mr Beer kits.

I don’t suspect many people light prayer incense prior to brewing like I do.

Does it help? [emoji3]

[dbeechum]

@dbeechum

I don’t suspect many people light prayer incense prior to brewing like I do.

Does it help? [emoji3]

Ha - oddly, yes.

It sets my mind towards brewing and signals that it’s begun.

[jeffy]

@majorvices

well,  not to derail the topic but 45 minutes in so far … can’t say it’s been incredibly enlightening but it’s always nice to hear Vinnie talk. He’s such a great dude (yes, I have met him). I’m jealous of his wet mill and malt bottom angered into the tun is pretty awesome.

Spell check is funny sometimes

[lupulus]

@denny

@lupulus

@denny

@beersk

@Village_Taphouse

@beersk

These are all things I do as well. Being one of the early adopters to low o2 brewing, I enjoyed perceived benefits for a couple years, then just literally burnt myself out on brewing worrying about it all the time. It took the fun out of brewing. I still do some of the processes, and sometimes even still deoxygenate the water, but anymore, I don’t worry too much about it as my beer doesn’t last more than a couple months in the keg before it’s gone.
Also, once I found out that sauergut was a key flavor component to “That German Lager Flavor” I decided to stop pursuing it. I wasn’t getting those German flavors in my beers that I taste in commercial versions, so I said, screw it and went back to what I was happiest with. I don’t have the energy to start making my own sauergut.

Funny but I could have posted that myself although I probably was not one of the ‘early adopters of LO’.  I was doing more than I listed with BTB, trifecta mix, spunding, etc. and at some point I felt like my beers were going backwards.  I took a step back and looked closer at what I was doing and I kept the pieces that I thought worked and I simplified.  I also looked back on many batches I made prior to doing ANY low-oxygen steps and I was pretty happy with them.  So I still do the ones I listed, I made some simplifications with regard to pH throughout the process, I cut out trifecta and BTB altogether (my wort and beer only touch stainless and plastic so BTB is not necessary), I started getting some better clarity by using ClearZyme and my beers have been great lately.  Again, my old techniques may have been really bad… **splashing and stirring my way through the brewday and these steps maybe just got me to a better place but not really in line with true LO brewers. **

Maybe, probably, but I bet the differences weren’t that enormous as to give you pause. Maybe with hoppier styles, but you don’t really brew hoppy styles. I guess, in the end, maybe it isn’t about brewing the best possible beer, but rather finding the best possible process to continue the joy of homebrew. I don’t know, maybe that’s BS, just came to mind.

The best beer possible, with the least effort possible, while having the most fun possible.  For me, it’s all of those.  None takes precedence over the other.

Everybody that does this as a hobby brews this way.
No exceptions.
From LODO to triple decoctions to historical beers to Mr Beer kits.

Sent from my SM-G981U1 using Tapatalk

What way?

The best beer possible. To them.
With the least effort that would allow the best beer possible. To them.
While having the most fun. Their interpretation of fun.

[majorvices]

@jeffy

@majorvices

well,  not to derail the topic but 45 minutes in so far … can’t say it’s been incredibly enlightening but it’s always nice to hear Vinnie talk. He’s such a great dude (yes, I have met him). I’m jealous of his wet mill and malt bottom angered into the tun is pretty awesome.

Spell check is funny sometimes

That damn autocorrect. lol

[BrewBama (Dwain)]

@lupulus

Can you answer this:

Potential O2 pickup during kegging
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic?share_fid=40079&share_tid=37391&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.homebrewersassociation.org%2Fforum%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D37391&share_type=t&link_source=app

[lupulus]

@BrewBama

@lupulus

Can you answer this:

Potential O2 pickup during kegging
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic?share_fid=40079&share_tid=37391&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.homebrewersassociation.org%2Fforum%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D37391&share_type=t&link_source=app

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

The answer is not simple. It’s almost impossible to measure the oxidation effect because oxidation occurs mostly through redox reactions driven by reactive oxygen species (ROS), not just oxygen.
Nonetheless, a good proxy for what may be occurring can be guessed by the TPO measurement methodology. See MBAA podcast: TPO.
Also, a Brauwelt 2018 article, TPO, getting the whole picture, illustrates the complexities of this measurement.

Hope this helps.
Cheers!

[lupulus]

@dbeechum

@lupulus

Everybody that does this as a hobby brews this way.
No exceptions.
From LODO to triple decoctions to historical beers to Mr Beer kits.

I don’t know - I’ve seen some people making themselves absolutely miserable with what they’re trying to do in the hobby.

Having said that - as I’ve always said around people’s processes, including ones that don’t fit my needs - if it floats your boat, you do you. I don’t suspect many people light prayer incense prior to brewing like I do.

You won’t last long being miserable.
Masochism does exist but it’s a rare pathology.
I know many, many home brewers at many levels. Can’t name one miserable. (Edit: when homebrewing or discussing brewing.)

[BrewBama (Dwain)]

@lupulus

@BrewBama

@lupulus

Can you answer this:

Potential O2 pickup during kegging
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic?share_fid=40079&share_tid=37391&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.homebrewersassociation.org%2Fforum%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D37391&share_type=t&link_source=app

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

The answer is not simple. It’s almost impossible to measure the oxidation effect because oxidation occurs mostly through redox reactions driven by reactive oxygen species (ROS), not just oxygen.
Nonetheless, a good proxy for what may be occurring can be guessed by the TPO measurement methodology. See MBAA podcast: TPO.
Also, a Brauwelt 2018 article, TPO, getting the whole picture, illustrates the complexities of this measurement.

Hope this helps.
Cheers!

Sent from my SM-G981U1 using Tapatalk

Thank you. I’ll ck out those resources. [emoji482]

[narcout]

@Village_Taphouse

So I still do the ones I listed, I made some simplifications with regard to pH throughout the process, I cut out trifecta and BTB altogether (my wort and beer only touch stainless and plastic so BTB is not necessary), I started getting some better clarity by using ClearZyme and my beers have been great lately.

A lot of the iron content in wort (a fair bit of which can be chelated with tannic acid) actually comes from the malt itself.

[Village_Taphouse]

@narcout

A lot of the iron content in wort (a fair bit of which can be chelated with tannic acid) actually comes from the malt itself.

So BTB would still be necessary?  The beers I have made without it (and trifecta mix) have been pretty stellar but I would continue to use it if there seemed to be a need.  I should also mention that the trifecta dosage was discussed a bit and it seemed like many people were experiencing “fart beer” and lowering the dosage.  I think it started at 100ppm, then 50, then 25.  I believe I was at 12.5ppm and I would still experience some of that character in the beer.  In the end, all beer is fart beer but let me tell you… nobody wants farty beer. 

[denny]

@Village_Taphouse

@narcout

A lot of the iron content in wort (a fair bit of which can be chelated with tannic acid) actually comes from the malt itself.

So BTB would still be necessary?  The beers I have made without it (and trifecta mix) have been pretty stellar but I would continue to use it if there seemed to be a need.  I should also mention that the trifecta dosage was discussed a bit and it seemed like many people were experiencing “fart beer” and lowering the dosage.  I think it started at 100ppm, then 50, then 25.  I believe I was at 12.5ppm and I would still experience some of that character in the beer.  In the end, all beer is fart beer but let me tell you… nobody wants farty beer. 

If the beer is “pretty stellar”, what would be the need?

[lupulus]

@Village_Taphouse

@narcout

A lot of the iron content in wort (a fair bit of which can be chelated with tannic acid) actually comes from the malt itself.

So BTB would still be necessary?  The beers I have made without it (and trifecta mix) have been pretty stellar but I would continue to use it if there seemed to be a need.  I should also mention that the trifecta dosage was discussed a bit and it seemed like many people were experiencing “fart beer” and lowering the dosage.  I think it started at 100ppm, then 50, then 25.  I believe I was at 12.5ppm and I would still experience some of that character in the beer.  In the end, all beer is fart beer but let me tell you… nobody wants farty beer. 

12.5ppm of Trifecta is about 5.5ppm of sulfites.
For comparison, a Campden in 30L would be 14.6ppm sulfites.

With these doses, farty beer was most likely due to yeast health.

[beersk]

@denny

@Village_Taphouse

@narcout

A lot of the iron content in wort (a fair bit of which can be chelated with tannic acid) actually comes from the malt itself.

So BTB would still be necessary?  The beers I have made without it (and trifecta mix) have been pretty stellar but I would continue to use it if there seemed to be a need.  I should also mention that the trifecta dosage was discussed a bit and it seemed like many people were experiencing “fart beer” and lowering the dosage.  I think it started at 100ppm, then 50, then 25.  I believe I was at 12.5ppm and I would still experience some of that character in the beer.  In the end, all beer is fart beer but let me tell you… nobody wants farty beer. 

If the beer is “pretty stellar”, what would be the need?

Exactly. Keep doing what you’re doing, Ken.

[denny]

@lupulus

@Village_Taphouse

@narcout

A lot of the iron content in wort (a fair bit of which can be chelated with tannic acid) actually comes from the malt itself.

So BTB would still be necessary?  The beers I have made without it (and trifecta mix) have been pretty stellar but I would continue to use it if there seemed to be a need.  I should also mention that the trifecta dosage was discussed a bit and it seemed like many people were experiencing “fart beer” and lowering the dosage.  I think it started at 100ppm, then 50, then 25.  I believe I was at 12.5ppm and I would still experience some of that character in the beer.  In the end, all beer is fart beer but let me tell you… nobody wants farty beer. 

12.5ppm of Trifecta is about 5.5ppm of sulfites.
For comparison, a Campden in 30L would be 14.6ppm sulfites.

With these doses, farty beer was most likely due to yeast health.

Sent from my SM-G981U1 using Tapatalk

So what the explanation when he says he gets the aroma when he uses it and doesn’t get it when he doesn’t use it?