What is the Purpose of this Forum?

The Pub
21

There’s a lot of innuendo and accusation pointing toward both sides, and finger pointing I feel directed at me in particular, and I am going to give my side.

I have almost never come in and directly questioned Bryan’s or your findings. The ONLY time I ever questioned ya’lls methods was one time when I questioned why Bittburger would spend so much money on LODO methods when the sixpack I picked up suffered from diacetyl (which I believed was oxidation problem). I honestly can’t remember another instance.

The entire derailment of the locked thread was because of Bryan’s tirade against Denny. It was completely disrespectful. Categorizing LODO proponents as “LODO Nazis” was poor judgment on my part, especially in this age of political correctness, and “LODO zealots” would have been a better choice.  I have been around for a very long time and it was once acceptable to call people “Style Nazi” and honestly, I didn’t mean anything insulting by the term. I do regret using that terminology now. However, I do feel it stopped short of “name calling”, as another has mentioned. It is simply not the same as calling someone a “dick”, etc.

But, whatever the case, it brought everything crashing down (although, it was going down in flames from the start.) During which I was accused of “being against Bryan’s methods from the beginning” … what??? I have never, not once tried to stop him from bringing his information. If anyone feels this is so, please go and show me!

You say “forcefulness in delivery can go hand in hand with passion about a subject” and herein lies the problem. “Forcefulness of delivery”. That has all I have ever said has been the problem.

When constant bickering starts to drive members away I feel like it is my job as a mod to try to correct the situation. Unfortunately it appears I have not gone about it the proper way. However, I will point out that I have NOT been involved with the constant bickering. Rather I have tried to STOP the bickering by barking down whom I have thought the problem was and only once it started to swing totally out of control!

There have only EVER been two people on this forum I have had strong words with: Bryan Rabe and BrewBoy. So for anyone to insinuate that I have been disrespectful to the forum members as a whole, I find that simply outrageous. In both times I grew forceful with my handling of the users because they were both causing rifts in the forum.

I will say, finally, that there isn’t an issue with people bringing advanced topics to this forum. There is a problem with people coming onto this forum and acting disrespectful to other’s opinions and views.

Rule #3. Be respectful of the questions and comments of others. It is OK to disagree with someone, but do so with respect. Keep the AHA forum friendly and encouraging of everyone’s participation. We will not tolerate rudeness, insults, personal attacks, inflammatory remarks, threats, racial/ethnic slurs, trolling, flame baiting or similarly disruptive postings.

By trying to enforce this rule I can see where I accidentally “flame bated” Bryan and Big Monk with the “Nazi” comment, but the problem is Bryan skates or literally breaks the “be respectful” on a regular basis.

If we have rules and we have mods, then what are the mods here for if not to enforce the rules???

22

How is any of your response relevant to this thread in particular? No one is making accusations here. I don’t think you need to defend yourself here. This thread seems like it was intended (please correct me if I’m wrong Phil) to be more of a thought experiment, a musing on the state of technical affairs at the forum.

Maybe a more appropriate place for your response is (I’m not being sarcastic or snarky here at all) back in the locked thread from the other day.

23

Hey Keith, thanks for posting that. I said “name calling” and maybe the phrase wasn’t accurate. All I can say as a fairly neutral observer is that you and Denny, two very passionate and experienced brewers volunteering God knows how many hours to help this forum, sometimes escalate rather than de-escalate ongoing derailed uncivil threads. When Bryan and Derek came back they were obviously making a sincere effort to be contributers here but, as I remember it, one person attacked and derailed the thread almost everytime they posted and made a mess of things. That person was given the occasional mild reprimand when really IMO more serious action was required because they were almost exclusively trolling. Honestly Bryan and Derek do still on occasion rub me the wrong way with certain attitudes but I respect the fact that they patiently continued to contribute despite being consistently trolled.
I like and respect all the mods here, this is just some honest feedback about one aspect of all you guys do for the forum. The reason I bother is that I find this forum a less pleasant place to be lately and think you care.

24

[quote=“, post:22, topic:25658”]

Derek, I think it’s relevant because the decline of civility here is intimately linked to people being uncomfortable posting technical stuff here.

25

[quote=“, post:24, topic:25658”]

Understood. That’s a fair assessment.

26

I have to agree that the person you mention has very often been the x-factor in things escalating unnecessarily. As to the forum in general, I see no reason that we can’t be welcoming and helpful to new and intermediate brewers while also being welcoming to technical info offered to advanced brewers, whether we choose to implement any of it or not.
The suggestion made to proofread all comments before posting and ask ourselves if it offers anything constructive to the thread (and forum) is excellent and should be practiced by every single one of us, every time.

27

lack of civility has been discussed, no need for me to reiterate other than to say I agree.

Lack of technical content - yeah the internet loves to disagree.  The tiring requests for “link??” with anything I say that people disagree with.  Or I often get asked “how would you make that with x shortcut or saving x amount of dollars/time?”  …I wouldn’t.  I’m only an expert at what I do; if you want shortcuts go research them yourself.  I’ll tell you what I do and you take it from there.  If you don’t taste a difference, by all means don’t decoct.  I do and I do.

The average level of expertise in homebrewing seems to have declined.  I assume this is due to A) the AHA casting a wider net and getting more people who aren’t necessarily as “Beer Is Life” as some of us old guard, and B) many many people who are good at this have gone pro.  A) isn’t a bad thing, but it does change the makeup of the hobby. Way more people are casual about this now.  B) has lead to even more great availability of commercial beer, which just reinforces the casual nature many homebrewers already have.

Along with the avg skill or experience level going down and the lack of technical content comes many many questions from newbies.  And while in general I support the ideal of helping them out, when you see the same questions repeated over and over and you know thousands of web pages already exist that answer them, well…you get tired of it.  I’ve taught dozens of people to brew at my home.  I’ve passed along knowledge online sometimes too.  And I’m over it.  I’m largely self-taught, and I yeah I guess I wish others had a little more of that mentality. 
Then there’s the questions I can’t answer.  I can’t look at your pic or read your description of “it just tastes weird” and tell you what went wrong.  Do a full description of your process and send me a bottle and I’ve got a pretty good chance to help you.

anyway, as a result I don’t spend much time here anymore.  Like NHC it’s a place to hang out and chat with friends. shrug
–Michael

28

For me this forum was the best place to find information because there were a lot a regulars that were knowledgeable.  I usually sift through recent posts to find helpful info for me. I tend not to answer questions because people will answer more thoroughly than I will, plus I don’t have a ton of posts so I don’t think anyone will listen to my advice so I don’t bother.  Would I like to see more advanced info? Sure.  But this is a forum for every level and every type of brewer.  It’s a drag when there is a bickering shitshow going on because the amount of irrelevant posts outnumber useful ones.  I also think the bickering that has driven away a lot of the regulars has kept people from adding valuable information, which is a shame.  I will still check this forum out almost everyday (that I am at work  :wink: ) but I wish a lot of this crap will end. Has it been going on for a year now?

29

Your point A is a little flipped from what seems to be in the marketing and demo data that’s being pulled. It’s not that the AHA is casting a wider net and getting shallower interest - it’s that the general interest pool is shallower. The data all points to plenty of people enjoying the idea of making beer, but fewer, particularly younger, folks wanting to make homebrewing their “lifestyle” ala us older brewers.

But then again, this is the same war fought over a wider and more visible battle ground than before. I can troll back through club newsletters from the 1970’s and 80’s and see the same grr argh “not taking this serious enough” angst including the classic - if you’re brewing extract, you’re not a real brewer. Thing is, this hobby has always been a majority extract brewers even in today’s high gear/information availability age.

I don’t know. I have fun with this hobby even if sometimes the personalities are a bit much. I prefer to operate from a guiding principle of kindness, which is not everyone’s north star as evidenced by all the hackles being raised around here.

Seriously, let’s practice the Wheaton Law (link) and not be proof of John Gabriel’s Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory (link)

Step back, take a deep breath, blah, blah, blah… ffs

30

Along these same lines, I wouldn’t want any part of an intentionally exclusionary group or organization! (hence why I shy away from some brewing forums that have more obvious rampant sexism, personality cults, etc.). One thing I really admire about AHA is that it is taking intentional steps towards inclusion and helping to create a culture outside of the quite frankly somewhat obnoxious mess that is often a visible face of homebrewing and craft brewing online. I also would ask everyone to keep in mind that not every homebrewer is pulling down a mid-six-figure income or has infinite brewing space and electrical capacity or infinite time…my sense is that this little piece of demographic information is sometimes where things go off the rails. I greatly admire those who create amazing beer using inexpensive improvised systems–that takes real skill!

31

Apparently the purpose is to sell me women’s swim ware and $29 watches.  If the ads stay, I will leave and will not renew my wife’s and my memberships.

32

Hmm, if you’re seeing those sorts of ads, then those need to be reported to Duncan (duncan@brewersassociation.org). I usually see things like whiskey barrels and brew guru offers.

33

This is within Tapatalk. They are way less “targeted.”

Want to see pics of singles?

34

I think we all just need to take a step back, take a few deep breaths, and lovigly gaze into our carboys eyes whilst listening to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQY2z6aALD4

We can all reconvene when calmer heads and hearts prevail.

35

I’m fairly certain my wife wouldn’t approve. :slight_smile:

Yeah, let me reach out and check, cause that’s uncool.

36

Duncan just let me know the web team is aware of the ad issue. They think Tapatalk changed some settings and so they’re finding a fix for it.

37

I’m not sure how to take the last part, but I’m not going to spend any more time worrying about it.

A little more clarification on how point A) is “flipped” would probably help too.  We are getting people that weren’t interested in homebrewing before, right?  More women, more young people, more non-engineers?  That’s good, unless you’re refuting that.  But people aren’t spending as much on “stuff” at the stores, and not spending as long in the hobby, correct?  Meanwhile a whole lot of people have gone pro. Also good (for them at least). I’ve never tried to make people less enthusiastic than myself unwelcome in this hobby and in fact as stated have actively done the opposite.  But I still prefer to spend my time with my own peeps - people I can relate to, have things in common with, have known for years.  My brewing family, basically.

…and a great many have disappeared.

38

Back in January I made the suggestion that what is needed is MULTIPLE FORUMS!  Look on the AHA main page under Let’s Brew.  There are tabs for Beginner, Intermediate and Advanced.  Structure the forum the same way.  A couple of general categories under each heading.

Will it work?  I don’t know, but given that the levels of animosity seem to be growing and have been for quite a while (at least they are from where I’m sitting), I don’t think it would hurt to look at the options.

39

Phil, I couldn’t agree more with you.

The thing is, every time I’ve thought - “hey, I should go check and see what’s going on with the AHA Forum” the top few threads are mostly bickering for no productive reason or threads simply discussing the lack of civility. :-\

The AHA Forum used to be a place were I could learn something. It used to be a place where we all respected each other. Where I wouldn’t get PMs telling me that I was doing things wrong. From my stop ins over the past year or so, it hasn’t changed much from when I left. Which is a shame.

40

Ugh… I think I’ve finally got to just say it, in as few words as possible…

Keith, Denny, I love you guys, but you know, you ain’t perfect.

Derek, Bryan, I love you guys, but you know, you ain’t perfect.

Me, I love myself, but I know I ain’t perfect.

The rest of ya’s, you’re all alright, I love you all, too.

Those of us who are still left here have had to deal with a lot of crap.  We need to put an end to the crap.  I’ll do my part if you’ll all do yours.  Perhaps the best thing to do is to never ever talk about crap ever again.  Let’s friggin talk about beer, dammit.

group hug

:cry: