Do you mean White Labs not Lallemand?
Lallemand is the sole manufacturer of WLP860 dry, it’s their product and White Labs’ strain and branding.
WLP 860 is listed on the Lallemand Yeast Calculator drop down menu.
If the OP pitched 2 packs in a 51 point 5 gal batch at recommended fermentation temp, at a 66% pitch rate it could easily explain sluggish fermentation performance.
very interesting, and i can understand that re: lallemand making it for them.
i dont want to dog pile but whitelabs is dead to me simply due to two practical reasons -the price is now much, much higher than in the previous packaging and i had a horrible result with the new packaging, indicating to me at best its about the same as the previous packaging ie. you NEED a starter for it despite whatever they say.
whitelab’s dry yeasts are $20.00 where i am. WLP860 and WLP001 are $19.99.
Why would I spend that much on dry yeast when liquid cali from a regional yeast company is gonna be 95% the same and much cheaper OR get 2 packs of any good dry lager yeast or a pack of bry97 for much cheaper. the two major focuses of their development have both been pointless. they should have not changed anything and just established other production facilities to cover regions they were far away from to ensure fresh quality products ie. maybe texas and illinois to cover the big deadzone they had in the middle of the states.
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Where are you located? Why don’t you just buy Omega/White Labs strains from Bobby at Brew Hardware and have them shipped? I just got a pitch of Augustiner/Bayern OYL-114, same strain as WLP860 shipped to my door for $10 last night (excluding shipping, but I bought a bunch of other stuff at the same time) and I threw it in some starter wort and it was absolutely ripping within two hours.
I haven’t had any issues with any non-expired White Labs PurePitch that I have bought from him, although not every reseller of these yeasts is as careful about storage as he is.
WLP 860 is listed on the Lallemand Yeast Calculator drop down menu.
If the OP pitched 2 packs in a 51 point 5 gal batch at recommended fermentation temp, at a 66% pitch rate it could easily explain sluggish fermentation performance.
And this is why Lallemand sucks compared to Fermentis. I like Lallemand, they make good products, but when Fermentis says I can use one single packet of 34/70 to ferment the same wort as THREE packets of Diamond, why should I bother?
Because they’re different yeasts with different results?
im not even in your country lol and i couldnt stand bobby’s avatar on HBT
Evening All,
2 Questions for you:
- Does anyone have experience of propagating this dry version of WLP860 to a pitch-able quantity (1.4 million cells/ml/˚P) for a relatively cold fermentation (9˚C, SG 1.044)?
@Finn_Berger You mention always making starters; I’ve found much better results from some dried strains by propagating up to my required pitch-rate. Yeast vitality, flavour and fermentation characteristics are so much better than straight out of the packet. From the sounds of it, people here have had bad experiences with WLPD860 pitched this way.
- Does anyone have experience of Spunding, for natural carbonation, with a healthy, fresh pitch of WLP860 with good vitality? I’m planning to take the traditional route of ‘low-and slow’ with this batch (9˚C) without raising for a diacetyl rest. Given this strain is known or kicking-off some SO2 if mistreated I wanted to gauge opinion specifically with WLP860. Assuming all required conditions for the yeast are optimal.
Thanks in advance.
Setting aside the (debatable) utility of focusing on pitch rate, I do understand the reluctance to direct-pitch dry yeast for some strains.
I get autolysis flavors with some dry strains (more below) pitched straight from the sachet. It’s not usually bad enough to dump the batch, but I taste it, and it annoys me. One beer that I did dump? The one where I pitched dry 860.
When you pitch dry yeast, ~30% of the cells don’t survive rehydration. Their membranes are so damaged from the drying process that the cells just fall apart when water enters them after pitching.
Both White Labs and Lallemand spin that these dead yeast cells “contribute additional sterols, nitrogen, vitamins and minerals to aid the fermentation.”
It’s autolysis, though. This is where those weird flavors come from. For me, it’s more easily tasted in lagers where dry yeast is pitched, because there is less to mask it. I don’t taste the weirdness at all when I pitch BRY-97 (huge fan) in an IPA.
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Thanks for the articles. The WLP001 I had already read, but the first one has escaped my radar and offers more insight into yours, and other’s, experiences of autolysis flavour with certain dried strains. So I’ll definitely be propagating my pitch for the lower abv Helles I’m going to make (WLPD860), given optimal yeast health for longer lagering is a necessity in this case. A little autolysis in the first stage of propagation should assist in nutrient for yeast growth – better that than the flavour being in the end product!
I’m on the cusp of investing in a microscope, but in the past, Brewfather has been helpful in optimising/approximating the 1 or 2 stage propagations from small quantities of dried yeast (2-3g) to produce the required pitch-rate for what I’ve been brewing, which has been directly evidenced in the observed fermentation profile and flavour of my beer. I normally reseal the packet straight away with my vacuum sealer and put it back in the fridge without any problems.
I first started propagating dried yeast (a Kölsch strain) due to autolysis flavour, as you experienced, in a previous batch. When rebrewing the same recipe after propagating; nothing, totally clean fermentation (minimal sulfur) and flavour (no autolysis or yeast-bite). Off-flavours are not what you want to experience after a prolonged period of cold-conditioning. I have to say, I didn’t experience any autolysis with 34/70. Indeed, as you say, some dry yeast strains are much better suited than others.
Apparently WLP860 (Augustiner Brau) has a somewhat lower oxygen requirement than other lager strains, hence why I’m more inclined to take the propagation approach, then aerate my wort rather than using the dried form straight from the packet. Both WLP001 and the Augustiner strain (wlp860) are “quite happy with 8-10ppm dissolved oxygen…” (30min:16) apparently.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94Mz_XDqdpA&list=WL&index=71