Wyeast 1469 (a.k.a. Timothy Taylor)

[lupulus]

@Saccharomyces

Many forum members have lauded this yeast culture, but few have lauded the fact that it is a true top-cropping culture.  If one watches the following YouTube, one learns that the standard practice at Timothy Taylor is to top crop.  This fraction of the Timothy Taylor video explains their fermentation process: https://youtu.be/4Cak4stt9v4?t=620.

With that said, here is what a Wyeast 1469 ferment looks like after the brown head has been skimmed and the second head has been allowed to form:

Here’s what the head looks like top-cropped (there is still quite a bit of CO₂ in the crop):

Here’s a closeup photo:

The beauty of top-cropped yeast is that it is naturally purified, which is due to the fact that non-domesticated yeast and bacteria do not floc to the top.  That is why top-cropping breweries can repitch hundreds to thousands of times.  In a typical American craft brewery, bottom settling yeast cultures are preferred.  That is a practical problem for amateur brewers because one cannot place selective pressure on the bottom-settling culture by cropping from the top. Yet, there is the constant threat from native microflora that sets an upper bound on the number of times a culture can be repitched without going back to a seed culture.

In a commercial brewery, the real threat to repitching is the cylindroconical fermentation vessel.  Please do not get me wrong.  Conicals were a major advancement in brewing technology from a production point of view.  It is just that the hydrostatic pressure placed on a culture in the cone of a sizable conical more easily results in yeast cell oxidation via reactive oxygen species (ROS). ROS causes respiratory petites to be formed.  That is not a problem for home brewers because the hydrostatic pressure to which yeast is subjected is trivial.  That means little in the way of petite mutation at the home level.  The bigger threat from home-based breweries is house is house microflora.  What I have learned over the last 29 years is that if one manages a spot in one’s home where fermentation takes place regularly well, the dominant microflora in that area tends to become domesticated brewing yeast.  Cleaning and sanitizing usually results in native flora numbers being reduced to a point where they are not a threat.  In essence, the longer a brewery remains in existence, the cleaner its products.  By clean, I do not mean squeaky clean.  I mean free of weird aromas and flavors, even if they are barely at threshold level.

Can you please provide literature references for ROS and petite mutant formation in conicals?
Thanks in advance.

[erockrph]

@fredthecat

is wyeast 1469 POF+?

i am finally about to get it

I haven’t seen any reference specifically calling it out as POF-, but I’ve never detected any phenolic flavors when using this strain.

[fredthecat]

@BrewBama

@Saccharomyces

…It could be improved by decoction mashing. PU has caramelization that is only possible via decoction mashing.  It is subtle, but it is there.

While it may be true PU uses a decoction, I believe they also use C malt for a background caramel flavor according to this: The Secrets of Czech Brewing - All About Beer . I’ve not seen it myself, maybe some who’ve toured the brewery can confirm.

lololol decoction = caramelization. contentious and i believe incorrect by definition as maltose caramelizes at 180C, sucrose at 160C (both far above boiling) and you get the idea. see traquair ale discussions for more on wort “caramelization”

i want to believe decoction does something, but considering the work and time involved and that i and others havent noticed a detectable, let alone obvious quality it produces i dont plan to do it again.

@erockrph

I haven’t seen any reference specifically calling it out as POF-, but I’ve never detected any phenolic flavors when using this strain.

thank you, that seems to be what people say, just wondering what to expect. ive only had timmy taylors that uses it. doing a stout and then a strong mild with it i hope.

[TechBrew (Richard)]

@lupulus

…

Can you please provide literature references for ROS and petite mutant formation in conicals?
Thanks in advance.

Sent from my SM-G981U1 using Tapatalk

Mark (Saccharomyces) has been absent from this forum for many months. I don’t think you are going to get an answer from him.

[lupulus]

@richard

@lupulus

…

Can you please provide literature references for ROS and petite mutant formation in conicals?
Thanks in advance.

Sent from my SM-G981U1 using Tapatalk

Mark (Saccharomyces) has been absent from this forum for many months. I don’t think you are going to get an answer from him.

Thanks Richard!
I have some references on Petit Mutants, notably one from Gibson on petite mutants and oxidative stress, but wondered if there were references I didn’t know about.
Also, the point Mark makes about CO2 pressure may be relevant for those fermenting under pressure; I haven’t seen a study on petite mutants and CO2 pressure.
Cheers!

[fredthecat]

i am extremely frustrated.

I have been trying to get this yeast for more than 2 years now.

this is the SECOND TIME, the one place that has it has claimed it is in stock and then suddenly they dont. this time they even processed my order payment, then afterwards emailed me and said its out of stock.

I still need to brew this coming month. I just want a flavourful and delicious yeast that is at least 2 of the following:

ideally POF-
over ~72% attenuation without simple sugars
flavourful rather than neutral
“english” or has some good fruity esters

Any thoughts?

I actually got WLP095 on hand as a gift last month but didn’t intend to use it, thoughts on it?

WLP023? but i heard its very finnicky, though i believe my source of it to be fresh

[hopfenundmalz]

We went on a long trip to Europe. Spent the first 10 days in Yorkshire, drank TT Landlord often and stayed in one of the TT Inns in Skipton near Keighley. POF? Never had a hint of phenolic off flavors.

[erockrph]

@fredthecat

i am extremely frustrated.

I have been trying to get this yeast for more than 2 years now.

this is the SECOND TIME, the one place that has it has claimed it is in stock and then suddenly they dont. this time they even processed my order payment, then afterwards emailed me and said its out of stock.

I still need to brew this coming month. I just want a flavourful and delicious yeast that is at least 2 of the following:

ideally POF-
over ~72% attenuation without simple sugars
flavourful rather than neutral
“english” or has some good fruity esters

Any thoughts?

I actually got WLP095 on hand as a gift last month but didn’t intend to use it, thoughts on it?

WLP023? but i heard its very finnicky, though i believe my source of it to be fresh

Do you have access to most White Labs strains, or just a few? I haven’t used 023, but 005 and 013 would fit the bill and are typically easy to find. There’s always the fallback of co-pitching Windsor + Nottingham (or some other clean/attenuative dry strain)

[chumley]

My next 10 gallon batch of mild next month, which will be split between two fermenters, will receive WY1318 London Ale III and WY1187 Ringwood. These are both great English ale yeasts, although they do not have the strong stone fruit esters of WY1469. I will then use the yeast cakes to make Baltic porter.

[fredthecat]

@erockrph

Do you have access to most White Labs strains, or just a few? I haven’t used 023, but 005 and 013 would fit the bill and are typically easy to find. There’s always the fallback of co-pitching Windsor + Nottingham (or some other clean/attenuative dry strain)

@chumley

My next 10 gallon batch of mild next month, which will be split between two fermenters, will receive WY1318 London Ale III and WY1187 Ringwood. These are both great English ale yeasts, although they do not have the strong stone fruit esters of WY1469. I will then use the yeast cakes to make Baltic porter.

i definitely want some stone fruit esters, tbh i was planning a sort of dubbelesque grist and OG but would use WY1469.

i believe WY1318 equals WLP013. i tried WLP013 before and enjoyed it, its good that i have data points on it. i might, definitely got the oak esters and a malty perception from it

i heard 005 is finnicky, but have heard good and bad things about them. i

im doing windsor/bry97 copitch in about a week on a porter and ill see if i like it. the homebrew shop tht had wy1469 said to email them again soon and see if they got it back in, so theres still a chance. if so i hope to keep some samples of it around and save it.

[system]

@hopfenundmalz

@narvin

@narvin

Didn’t get that foam monster as seen in Timothy Taylor video, or from others.
Fermentation was normal like any others brewed, and started within 24 hours.
Should two smack packs been pitched ?

Was your fermentation open or otherwise well aerated?  I got an absolutely huge head when I did an open ferment with Ringwood in a square fermenter, and none of the dreaded diacetyl.  These yeasts love oxygen.

No open fermentation, aerated the best I could.
Square fermenter ?
How long do you leave the fermenter open ?

I use a 5.3 gal speidel fermenter, I wonder if I could just leave the stopper off for a couple of days.
Next brew planned is with 1469 also.

13 Gallon Vittles Vault® | U.S. Plastic Corp.

It was a vittles vault I originally bought for Belgian beers.  I left the top off for 4 days I think, and just put a grain bag mesh over the top to keep anything big out.

I’m not saying this is necessary but they often aerate DURING fermentation with these yeasts.  If you aren’t pleased with the beer, it’s something to consider.

I’m game. Next batch I’ll leave the top off for a couple of days, and cover with mesh bag.
How did you aerate ?
Next batch is almost identical to previous one, let’s see what happens.
Thanks, never considered doing this.

I used a sanitized spoon and stirred a few times the first few days.

One way to areate is to rack the beer to a second fermenter, and let it splash a little.

https://zythophile.co.uk/2008/09/24/a-tasty-drop-the-history-of-an-almost-vanished-fermentation-system/

Thanks for the double drop info, couldn’t remember who it was, and it was you.
Love 1469, open ferment & double drop works very well for me, and used for every batch since, no problems at all.
I’m an OCD sanitizer, so that probably helps.