Working toward the mythical 2 hour AG session and in the spirit of LODO brewing I plan to try a 30m boil on next brew. Plan to plug recipe into Promash and reduce boil off rate 50% to get my liquid numbers and also change IBU/hop additions to 30m max. That’s all I can think of. Anything you guys can think of I am missing?
I assume you will need to change water/acid treatments to account for a smaller initial volume of water.
Depending on the recipe, you may get a bit more hop flavor if you’re moving a 60-minute addition up to 30 minutes. I don’t know if there’s much you can do about it, but it’s something to be aware of.
Touche’. Yes, will need to get the Promash numbers into BNW.
I think I might just adjust the sparge. In other words, keep mash same but short the sparge by the boil off difference.
Yep, good call.
Yeah if you have the room I’ve found that I tend to like working with thinner mashes, especially for my lagers. The only downside I’ve run into is that they’re a little more apt to lose temperature than a thick mash, but I found the difference to be minimal.
Another good point. I think sticking to the neutral types should mitigate or use hop extract for early additions where you don’t want any flavor but in some ways I consider this an advantage!
Agreed - for hoppy styles this is definitely a plus. For an American Light Lager it might not be.
I’d be interested to see if the old-school DMS/light colored malt/short boil relationship holds up or is BS. I guess you need to try brewing a German Pils with that 30 minute boil and see how that goes?
brulosphy guys did a short boil Pils malt trial.
I think there MIGHT be a chance for DMS on a short boil if you are using old school under modified malt. BTW the last pils I did the majority of IBU was from a 30m hopstand/whirlpool (just like my IPA) and it rocked. Right now, the hopstand/whirlpool is the time killer but I think it is worth it.
I think it is more related to the kilning rather than the modification if the malt. Higher kilned malts will have more if the DMS precursors driven off and pose less risk of DMS formation in the boil.
Good to know. I did a 45 minute boil on my low DO dunkel yesterday. It was a sub-4 hour brew session, which I’m pretty pleased with. Was a 3 gallon batch, so that helps.
Not saying you’re wrong as I recall reading this myself, but per Noonan malt spec treatise: “DMS precursor (DMS-P): This value represents the levels of S-methyl methionine (SMM) and dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO) in the malt. These compounds will convert to dimethyl sulfide (DMS) when the wort is heated. The DMS-P should be 5-15 ppm for lager malts, less for ales. The more fully modified the malt, the lower the DMS-P levels should be.”
I tend to think “floor malted/bohemian malt” is BOTH undermodified AND low temp kilned, so we’re BOTH right. ;D I cannot locate DMS-P data for Weyermann malts but the other pils malts I researched are fine. That said, most of my brews will be from domestic so 'tis a non-issue. On a slight tangent but since many of you here are keeping up with the LODO stuff, my next pils (NGP) I plan to “re-kiln” the malt to see if I can coax some “it” into the beer. Currently thinking 1-2 hours at 170F and let it cool prior to mashing. Very curious if the malt aroma will perk up a bit.
I like the idea, but you may want to try a small sample re-kilned first just to make sure it doesn’t darken the grain too much, especially for a light lager. 1-2 hrs seems like a long time to me.
Small scale trial is probably the way to go. The times I quoted were based on what I found in my research for home made malt but I plan to play it by nose and heat until things smells good. 50/50 chance me thinks. Maybe nothing will happen since I am at low temps and the magic happens hotter/roasting/maillard… I do alot of cooking and one of my techniques is to park cooked/grilled food in the oven at 170F until serving to ensure the entire meal is ready at same time and it is quite surprising how long you can get away with it. Nothing browns or overcooks but a few things will dry out a bit if not covered when parked a long time. If I get pseudo scientific about re-kilning, dare I say that if I am removing moisture (water>h20) from the malt aren’t I am removing a potential oxidative agent?
Another issue that hasn’t been discussed yet is hot break. You need a good hot break to coagulate and remove undesirable proteins and polyphenols. I’m not sure that would be fully accomplished in 30 minutes, increasing risk of astringency and chill haze in your beer.
There used to be a question on nearly every written BJCP exam (the old version) that asked the examinee to list and describe 5 or more reasons to boil wort. From the study guide-
Boiling wort is normally required for the following reasons:
- Extracts, isomerizes and dissolves the hop α-acids
- Stops enzymatic activity
- Kills bacteria, fungi, and wild yeast
- Coagulates undesired proteins and polyphenols in the hot break
- Evaporates undesirable harsh hop oils, sulfur compounds, ketones, and esters
- Promotes the formation of melanoidins and caramelizes some of the wort sugars (although this is not desirable in all styles)
- Evaporates water vapor, condensing the wort to the proper volume and gravity (this is not a primary reason, it’s a side effect of the process)
You can account for or not worry too much about some of these, but a short boil risks issues with the finished beer.
I remember that question ;D While I agree that boiling does those things, I would argue how long it takes to achieve. IE - I would think the main benefits of boiling (sterilization) occur in like 10-15m tops, maybe even protein coagulation too. WRT to proteins and polyphenols: I think wort pH (and Ca) play a significant role in the reduction of these matters during the boil and I will be dialing pH in via BNW. I also use both whirlfloc and polyclar in the boil and have a level of confidence these products will resolve any issue I would have (if I did).
Sterilization does take longer than 10-15 minutes, assuming a sea level pressure/212o boiling point. That’s why we have to use pressure canners to make canned starters.
A normal boil isn’t long enough to sterilize the wort either, IIRC, but I don’t have the time/temp chart for sterilization handy.
The chart in this article? http://www.morebeer.com/brewingtechniques/library/backissues/issue1.2/raines.html I will not deny that basically there is ALWAYS some level of contamination unless taken to extremes…