[quote=“denny, post:20, topic:7476, username:denny”]
I do the same as well. My thought is that you are probably just extracting less by adding them at vorlauf. If you were to add more dark grain to make up the difference in color, you’d probably be back to a similar flavor contribution as well. I just mash it all together and adjust the quantity of roasted grain in the recipe if needed.
I use the same amounts of roasted/crystal grains I’d use if mashing, but I don’t perceive a decrease or change in the actual flavor itself. I mainly add them at vorlauf for the reasons that Jeffy mentioned.
I do like the beers better, however. Whether it’s “smoothness” or a consistent mash pH, I can’t say. But I’ve tried it both ways and found that I prefer the late additions.
YMMV, of course.
I think one aspect of this that should be considered is the affect on the pH of the beer itself.
I recently did a late addition with an Irish Dry Stout. After mashing at a normal pH with Marris Otter/flaked barley (new computer… don’t have my old beersmith notes but I think it was around 5.3 or so) the late addition of 500l Roasted Barley brought the pH down leaving the final beer at like 3.85 or something, which is right around Guinness.
That low pH is probably a component of that tang, so to speak, some find in Guinness (and I found in my homebrew). Adding a tiny bit of baking soda to the glass brought the pH back up and created a totally different beer. While that low pH is characteristic of a dry stout it seems a lot of folks like to mash their stouts higher.
I agree with Denny’s point, but I prefer them to be more muted. Admittedly, I don’t do a ton of dark beers, but my dry stout turns out great with the late add process. Again, it is about getting out of the process the results you want.
Where is the Brülosopher when we need him?
Ill say it for the second tome in this thread and maybe someone will listen. If you are adding a bunch of dark/acidic malts late/vorlauf after mashing at a correct pH you will be dropping your kettle pH significantly. You would, in many cases need to adjust the pH a second time for the kettle. Just because the pH during conversion was ok that doesn’t mean its going to be ok for you to screw with it after conversion. There will be an impact. #kettlepHmatters
German brewers often lower kettle ph. It can be beneficial to “screw with it”.
Apparently Im not doing a good job of making my point. Yes it “can” be beneficial but I doubt that “german brewers” blindly add acidic malts at vorlauf without consideration of what the effects are on pH, boil chemistry, and flavor. Which it seems people are doing in this thread. For example if you mash an Oatmeal Stout or worse, a RIS at 5.4 and then do a late addition of all the roasted malts and/or dark crystals hoping to get a smooth roast flavor, what do you think will happen? Just because conversion happened at 5.4 doesnt mean dropping the pH (with acidic malts at vorlauf) to 5.0 in the kettle is going to be a good idea. You will ideally want to adjust your kettle pH. Again, I bring this up because it seems the folks in this thread arent taking this into consideration.
5.4 is your number, not mine. I target a higher mash pH.
This is the kind of thing you need to test and decide for yourself. No one else can tell what your tastes are.
This ^
+2
I was thinking an exbeeriment where roasted malts for a dark beer are added for the whole mash versus just at vorlauf. It would be interesting to see if a sample of tasters could tell the difference between the two beers.
I think they’d definitely be able to tell a difference either way, but pH would be huge in which ones were preferred. If they were both mashed @ 5.4, the ‘add at sparge beer’ might be preferred. If the ‘all mashed together’ beer were mashed @ 5.6, the results might well be different. It’d be interesting to see.
I mash all my grains together for the whole mash. I find this thread thought provoking though.
If they couldn’t, I’d worry…
That’s pretty much what I think regarding the other thread about hiring professional judges to tell you how to tweak your recipes. 
Three of us in Belgium brewed the same base beer for a Supplication clone. A double-ish ale with 5% Carafa Special III. I was the only one who added that Gordonesquely in Vorlauf. The difference was very clear: mine was not only lighter in color but also less roasty. Not better or worse, just different. I would probably not do it for a heavy stout, but for this beer I liked it.
BTW, 2 of us brewed the beer with Wyeast #3787, the 3rd one used yeast he had gone to fetch at the Westmalle brewery itself. The difference was spectacular…
This is what I was getting at when I mentioned lower extraction. If the other brewers used a lower amount of Carafa and mashed it to end up at the same color as your beer with the grains added at vorlauf, would the flavor difference still be there? I’m leaning stongly towards “no” on this.
I agree, the difference was not outspoken. The biggest differences were the fresh Westmalle yeast vs the Wyeast, and the fact that my beer was a bit sweeter.