Dry Yeast Starter

Ingredients
21

It just depends on how much yeast. And in the case of liquid yeast, how many viable cells are available. 1 liter starter is p[robably too small for just about any pitch of yeast if your intend it to grow yeast. With the amount t of cells in todays packaging, you probably need to start with about 4L.

But again, it depends on a lot of factor. As Denny alluded to earlier, health and viability are also extremely important. If your starter is too small you could be doing more harm than good by causing the yeast to use their internal reserves. Since liquid yeast already are using their reserves during g storage, a small starter could help to “energize” the yeast by giving them a sterol boost (if plenty of aeration and nutrients are included). But for dry yeast, you are probably damaging the yeast.

22

Way too small. A 5 gal batch would be about right.

23

@Majorvices
Thanks for the great info and taking the time to add your input! Your input has helped me tremendously! Cheers!!

24

HopDen, you are more than  welcome. After all, I learned this stuff from asking questions on forums too! (Plus books and podcasts, etc.).

25

+1

26

Follow-up: Pitched yeast at 1:30 Saturday afternoon. I didn’t have any signs of active fermentation after 24 hrs. Checked today at 6:30 and fermentation is underway. Blowoff is very active.

27

Can you explain a little more about the above?

The liquid yeast are starting in sub optimal condition in a starter and are replenishing themselves. The dry yeast are starting in optimal condition, why are they diminished in the same conditions.

If the dry yeast starter is to small as in the above explanation and no growth occurs, how much of the reserves were used and how are they not able to replenish themselves if the nutrients are right & the aeration is plentiful. Wouldn’t this really just create a incredibly healthy cell count with no growth.

28

There’s a lot more to pitching than cell count

29

[quote]The liquid yeast are starting in sub optimal condition in a starter and are replenishing themselves. The dry yeast are starting in optimal condition, why are they diminished in the same conditions.
[/quote]

First off, if the liquid yeast is very fresh, a starter that is too small can also have negative effects on the yeast population. Also, the information was not meant to insinuate that the dry yeast were in “optimal” condition, only that their reserves are stored before they go into suspension. Liquid yeast are using their reserves (during storage) since they are not in stasis. The further the liquid yeast is from its package date, the more reserves they will have used, the more a starter will be necessary.

If you make a 5 gallon starter with a pitch of dry yeast, you will most certainly grow yeast. If you make a 1-2L starter with dry yeast, you might not have any growth since the dry yeast will simply use al their reserves, consume all the sugars and not replicate. But, again, with very fresh dry yeast–the exact same thing will happen.

I heard it described like this once by (I believe) Jamil Zainasheff: if you have 100 sheep, and an acre of grass, the sheep eat all the grass but there isn’t enough food to feed all of them so some die off and there is very little procreation. But if you have 100 sheep on 100 acres of grass, the sheep have plenty to eat and as they graze they also procreate and their population grows as well.

What is important to understand is that this applies to all yeast pitches: the difference with dry yeast is that 100 sheep in a 1 acre lot are already fat and happy and not very hungry. Liquid yeast sheep may be super skinny and starving already dying off so the plot of grass may actually be just what they needed to start off a healthy population.

30

First off, if the liquid yeast is very fresh, a starter that is too small can also have negative effects on the yeast population. Also, the information was not meant to insinuate that the dry yeast were in “optimal” condition, only that their reserves are stored before they go into suspension. Liquid yeast are using their reserves (during storage) since they are not in stasis. The further the liquid yeast is from its package date, the more reserves they will have used, the more a starter will be necessary.

If you make a 5 gallon starter with a pitch of dry yeast, you will most certainly grow yeast. If you make a 1-2L starter with dry yeast, you might not have any growth since the dry yeast will simply use al their reserves, consume all the sugars and not replicate. But, again, with very fresh dry yeast–the exact same thing will happen.

I heard it described like this once by (I believe) Jamil Zainasheff: if you have 100 sheep, and an acre of grass, the sheep eat all the grass but there isn’t enough food to feed all of them so some die off and there is very little procreation. But if you have 100 sheep on 100 acres of grass, the sheep have plenty to eat and as they graze they also procreate and their population grows as well.

What is important to understand is that this applies to all yeast pitches: the difference with dry yeast is that 100 sheep in a 1 acre lot are already fat and happy and not very hungry. Liquid yeast sheep may be super skinny and starving already dying off so the plot of grass may actually be just what they needed to start off a healthy population.

[/quote]

I have never read about a starter having a negative impact on yeast. This quote is directly copy and pasted from Yeast by Chris and Jamil “The fundamental fact is that yeast cannot grow unless they have enough sugar and nutrients for each cell to divide. While the cells do not multiply much when the inoculation rate is this high, it can still benefit the existing cells. The takeup of sugar, nutrients, oxygen, and the production of compounds such as sterols, improve cell health. Starters rarely have a negative side; even if there is little yeast growth, a starter helps to revive yeast for fermentation by activating metabolism, and therefore fermentation starts faster.”

Where can I read about a starter having detrimental effects on the yeast. I am not being incendiary at all, are there papers that you can point me to on this subject.

31

There are two conversations going on here: 1) you shouldn’t make a starter with dry yeast and 2) a starter that is too small can actually be harmful to the overall yeast population. Regarding the former: this is well documented and not sure any more clarification is necessary. Regarding the latter, there is a lot going on here and, as Denny wisely and succinctly points out “It’s not all about cell counts”. For instance, if the yeast is unhealthy then–absolutely, a starter should be used and is beneficial. I’m talking about using fresh yeast in an undersized starter. And instead of writing a book I’m trying to keep it succinct (which is difficult because it is a complex topic).

Regarding the Yeast book by JZ and CW: It’s been a minute since I read that book but 1) they aren’t talking about dry yeast 2) I believe they are talking about pitching an active starter with liquid yeast (not growing yeast and fermenting the starter to completion). I’ll also add that liquid yeast packaging has more live cells that it once had by a long shot. When I first started brewing in the mid '90s you needed a starter for any liquid pitch of yeast you purchased (and dry yeast was all garbage, lots has changed). I’m not sure what the cell counts in the packages of yeast were when the book was written. But I feel confident that if you emailed Chris White, and asked him if an undersized starter could be less-than-beneficial to a fresh pitch of healthy liquid yeast, he’d have a lot more to say than what is written in that simple quote you posted.

There’re also two methods of making starters: proofing starters and growing starters. Proofing starters–under the right conditions–won’t hurt the overall yeast population if the yeast it pitched when active (just prior to, at or just past high krausen). But if you are growing yeast the starter size matters and it can leave the over-all cell population less healthy than they were before they were pitched if the volume of the starter was too small.

There’s too much going on with yeast to paint a black and white portrait–obviously a small starter that is fed with constant aeration lives by different rules than a simple starter that was only given a good shake before the yeast was pitched. So I guess what I am saying is it isn’t a one size fits all package. For me personally–I almost never make starters any longer. I start out with enough healthy yeast in a low SG beer, aerate well if necessary, pitch that yeast and use harvested slurry to brew anything afterward.