For those who hopstand/whirlpool hops, who uses only bittering plus whirlpool, vs bittering, other boil additions plus whirlpool, and why?
For beers where I hopstand (APA, AIPA, ie., most American styles) I use a bittering addition, hopstand addition (170-175F), and dry hops only. Hopstand/whirlpool hops give you plenty of good hop flavor - the late boil hops just aren’t needed when you do this IMO.
I made a SMASH beer (sort of a hybrid english bitter) with just a first wort addition plus a whirlpool/steep addition, and I really liked the results. Lots of hop flavor, not quite as much aroma as dry hops though. I used the the same FWH/whirlpool additions for a saison I brewed on Sunday, hopefully it turns out just as well.
I do 60, 20, 10, and 5 minute hop additions plus a steep. Why? Because I like the results. Objectionable aromas like cat pee and onions seems to be reduced or eliminated with some boil time. I don’t steep hops that are prone to foul aromas.
I tried FWH on a saison and thought it was too smooth in the bitterness.
I’m finding the opposite. Some hops like Citra seem to stay soft and pleasant when they are not used in the boil. I have to wonder if there is some sort of isomerization reaction that creates those off aromas like cat pee and garlic? It does seem limited to certain hop varieties.
I agree with this with the exception of cooling to 170f before adding steeping hops. But only because I haven’t tried it. I add a small bittering addition(25 ibu for an IPA) and the rest at FO and I have loved the results.
The results of this study are consistent with my observations.
http://fba.asbcnet.org/publications/journal/vol/Articles/ASBCJ-2008-0702-01.pdf
4mmp = potential for cat pee
I read that study a bit differently. 4MMP is decreasing in the boil, but increasing in fermentation. This says to me that the 4MMP is being chemically bound during the boil (and the authors also refer to two studies that have indeed found that is is happening), and then released by the yeast during fermentation. Since 4MMP has a flash point of 129F, it looks like this conjugation may have a protective effect - i.e., the 4MMP gets bound during the boil before it can flash off.
Furthermore, they also indicate that copper binds 4MMP. So, if you use a copper wort chiller that is another mechanism where you may possibly end up with more 4MMP in your finished beer by boiling it compared to steeping it, if it turns out that the bound 4MMP has less affinity for copper.
Regardless, we taste with our tongues and not an HPLC. The chemistry here is complicated enough where sensory analysis will continue to trump chemical analysis for quite some time, I’m sure.
And back to the OP - I typically use a 60-minute addition in addition to a hop stands when A) I want a firmer bitterness in an IPA (which is getting less and less often these days) or B) I want a controlled amount of IBU’s. In case B I wait until my wort gets down to 180-185ish before adding my steep hops, to minimize further isomerization.
What most people describe as piney, I describe as freshly-soiled litter box.
I have a kitty with an aim problem, so I am no stranger to the heady aroma of cat urine. Yet I’ve never picked up any flavor/aroma of cat pee in a beer. It never ceases to amaze me how different everyone’s perceptions of taste and aroma are.
Except for Simcoe to me…sometimes. I love the hop and have used it at a lot of different times and methods and don’t find the cattiness more common in late hopping vs hop stand vs dry hopping . I often times don’t get it at all. But I’d love to figure it out or see some convincing study info along the lines of the posted study. So for the time being, I’m convinced some or most of the ‘cat pee’ thing is harvest/ grower/ ‘terroir’ related.
Chinook was the first hop I encountered that made me fully appreciate the term “catty;” however, it is like a breath of fresh air compared to Simcoe. Simcoe is cat funk central.
It pretty much comes down to the style but in my case for my pales I usually will do a nice bittering charge at 60, then a flame out/whirlpool/steep addition and then dry hop.
For the latest IPA I just brewed I did a FWH, a 60 minute, a 10min, a 5 min and a flameout/whirlpool/steep (30 min) and plan on dry hopping as well.
Some styles I’ll simply do a 60 minute like a Hefe and that’s it. I usually don’t do any charges from the 60 to 10 minute mark, I’ve tried them in the past and my results are inconclusive to what they contribute.
Interesting, I have never perceived that from Chinook. But like Eric mentioned, it’s pretty interesting to hear people describe what they get from specific hops. Like I said, I don’t doubt that some character is directly growing conditions/harvest related, but it seems that people just plain process the aromas differently. Some people hate Simcoe in anything , others love it. I love it except for when I get a really catty end result from it. I perceive Citra as mostly orange/peach, where others say it’s straight tropical with occasional cattiness (which I’ve never noticed). I get straight piney blueberries from Mosaic, others a generic fruitiness. On and on.
Definitely the hops blended together play a role in overall perceptions. But I guess that’s where experimentation needs to come in.
I grew up with cats and have two now so am well aware of what funkiness can be present. I have never gotten the ‘catty’ notes that are always discussed however I have noticed the garlic/onion notes that some discuss in correlation with Summit in commercial beers. I have never brewed with Summit. Just like anything, everyone’s perception, thresholds, and tastes are different.
My buddy told me over the weekend that he was a ‘supertaster’ which I have never heard of. Maybe he can taste cat piss in things that I cannot…
For my pale ales I have recently started doing 60 min, 10 min, hopstand addition for 30 min, and dry hop. I will throw hops in the keg if I undershot the hop character I was going for.
Yes. I must say that Chinook grown in MI is not so catty. Pros who get from the farms up north agree. A pro homebrewer friend likes the ones grown in my back yard. From what I have read it depends on soil and harvest time if you get the cat pee. My wife is very sensitive to it, she hates Simcoe, so I should know if it is the beers I make with homegrown Chinook.
So it sounds like, for an APA or IPA, most people who whirlpool hop use little to no boil additions other than bittering. I will be doing my first brew with this technique on Saturday with the recipe below. We will see how it goes.
Batch Size: 5.85 gal Style: American Pale Ale (10A)
Boil Size: 8.00 gal
Color: 6.4
Bitterness: 38.0 IBUs Boil Time: 60 min
Est OG: 1.055 (13.5° P)
Est FG: 1.013 SG (3.3° P)
ABV: 5.6%
Ingredients
Amount Name Type #
9 lbs 8.5 oz Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 1
1 lbs 1.0 oz Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 2
8.5 oz Honey Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 3
4.2 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 4
0.3 oz Magnum [14.0%] - Boil 60 min Hops 5
0.50 Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 5 min) Misc 6
1.0 oz Centennial [10.0%] - Steep 30 min Hops 7
0.5 oz Amarillo Gold [8.5%] - Steep 30 min Hops 8
1.0 oz Cascade [5.5%] - Steep 30 min Hops 9
2 pkgs German Ale/Kolsch (White Labs #WLP029) or 001
0.8 oz Cascade [5.5%] - Dry Hop 4 days Hops 11
0.5 oz Amarillo Gold [8.5%] - Dry Hop 4 days Hops 12
Mash 154 for 60 min
Personally I would bump up the dry hops to 1oz each and mash at 150, just my thought.
I find anything less than 2oz+ dry hopping really doesn’t do much.
I also like my pales drier and crisper, hence the lower mash temp.