There are varieties of ways to get there. Gordon, on his El Hefe, pulled the decoction at mash-in temp, ramped up to 150, then returned the decoction to get to 158. That’s only 8 degrees, and he hit the dextrin half of conversion, not the maltose half, but it’s still better than just a mashout decoction.
I’m still experimenting, but usually I infuse from acid to protein, decoct to maltose, decoct again to dextrin, then direct heat to mashout. By adding HLT water to the decoction kettle to prevent scorching, my mash gets thinner each time I return the decoctions, so that direct heating to mashout is not a problem, and it saves a little time. But it all still takes a long time, no doubt about that.
Joe,
Were you referring to the pseudo-decoction article in Zymurgy? I’ve been meaning to try that. Do you like the results?
Yes, that’s the article to which I was referring. So far, I’ve done a Hefe and a Dunkelweizen using that method. Thought the Hefe turned out great and the Dunkelweizen, well, it’s one of my entries in the NHC so I’m interesting in seeing the feedback.
I haven’t done a wheat beer but with my german style Lagers I mash in at 140 deg pull a decoction to get to my intended temp of 150-158 deg depending on what i’m making. The conversion at 140 is fairly slow and doesn’t seem to affect the body too much. I pull a thin decoction for mashout
Very possible. I’ve done the “Enhanced Double Decoction” from Kai’s decoction wiki page for a Hefeweizen, which goes from 111 to 152 using a thick decoction. It required maybe 50% of the grist to be pulled and boiled.
When I decoct I always get better results both in efficiency and mouthfeel/maltyness. I’m getting ready to do a Maibock and someone suggested doing a single decoction after the alpha conversion to get up to mashout. So dough in at131 for 20 min.; 30 min. at 148; 30 min. at 153, then decoct the thin part and return to mash/raise to 170.
Any suggestions?
I have done this for pilsener with good results–overshot my OG. It is a bit more work though.
I have become a fan of the Hochkurtz decoction - High short.
http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Decoction_Mashing#Hochkurz_Double_Decoction
Or you can follow the single decoction schedule listed above on that page.
My Recipe was as follows:
5.7# Pilsner
2.1# Malted Wheat
2.0# Raw Wheat
0.2# Munich Malt
0.3 oz Sorachi Ace (14.9 AA) 60 Min
0.4 oz Sorachi Ace (14.9 AA) 15 Min
WB-06 1/2 Gal Starter
Mashed at 104 at 2.0 qt/lb for 6.5 Min, infused with 4.5 qts of boiling water to raise to 122 for 25 Min, then pulled 2.6 Gal of thick mash and decoctioned at 145 for 15 Min then raised to 155 for 15 Min and then boil the decoction for 10 min, when reintroduced to main mash main mash stabolized at 145. Held main mash at 16 for 15 min and pulled 3.2 Gal of thick mash and raised to 156 for 15 min and then reaised slowly too a boil. Reintroduced the decoction to the main mash and it settled at 168 where it stayed for 15 Min. Sparged with 2.5 gal of 170 degree water really slowly about an hour.
After the boil chilled to 68 degrees and pitched 1/2 gal starter of WB-06.
Ended up with 5.5 Gal of wort at 1.056 (I was expecting 1.045)
This was my first time doing a Decoction Mash and it wasn’t as hard as I thought it would be. I would do it again.
I usually use 1/2 tsp of Wyeast yeast nutrients btu forgott to add it. Also I did not use kettle finings like Irish Moss as I was trying to make that cloudy look a Hefe should have.
If fermenting stronly in my basement at 64 degrees.
I will do this again. It tastes great! I will enter this in a few competitions.
Richie
For my lagers I dough in in around 145 and let it rest 30 minutes then pull all the thick mash. I bring it to a boil slowly with no rests. I add it back to hit around 158. You could skip the mash out or use an infusion. I pull most of the thin mash and boil it for a mash out. This is nice because even with a single decoction all the grain can be boiled.
For my last wheats I did triple decotions. The last three had poor head retention. I think it must be the protein rest but it’s never been a problem before.
Thought I’d mention that I ended up brewing a dunkelweizen using the “classic” double decoction method as described on Kai’s site. The hydrometer sample has me optimistic that the final product will be good beer. I confess though to being pretty tempted to work my way through the whole gamut of decoction mashes to see how different the brews turn out.
I made a Weissbier Sunday using a single decoction from protein rest (131) to low sac rest (148) and then heated to get the high sac rest (158). It worked out pretty well and didn’t take too much extra time. We’ll see how it tastes eventually.
That’s really interesting that you had that problem. The last wheat I made has way too much head retention. It has dense, thick, clumpy foam that lasts through the whole beer.
Grist was 52% pale, 38% wheat malt, 10% raw wheat.
Here’s the mash schedule I used, a modified double-decoction:
107* for 10min,
decoction
131* for 15min,
infused water
136* for 10min
decoction
149* for 15min,
infused water
159* for 15min.
I assumed the crazy head retention was from too much protein degradation, and that the protein rest actually caused too much protein to break down into albumins that didn’t precipitate in the boil as hot break. Am I right?
Right, since you stayed below and then above the peptidase range… of course, can one really have too much head retention? 
Dunkel update: bottled the brew that this thread begat. “9 Hour” will be ready in two short weeks…Thankfully I’ve got two brews that’d be ready for drinking before then.