Munich as substitute for caramel malt

[Silver_Is_Money]

@erockrph

To me, the spectrum of Crystal malts (very generally) goes from honey to toffee to caramel to raisin/fig, while Munich malts have a spectrum that is more like progressively darker bread crusts, with Aromatic malt being the darkest end on that spectrum. You can certainly try substituting some Munich for Cara-malts in a recipe, but the result will likely be much different.

Also, add me to the camp that doesn’t find that Caramel malts make sweet beer. I have a funny feeling that this is an old brewing myth that dates back to when a lot more brewers were using extract, and possibly poorer quality yeast. Yes, C-malts have flavors that are reminiscent of sweet things, and that would be accentuated in an underattenuated beer, but they themselves don’t add much sweetness directly.

I believe this to be the best assessment of the two malt styles I’ve ever seen.  Thanks for posting it!

[dannyjed]

@erockrph

To me, the spectrum of Crystal malts (very generally) goes from honey to toffee to caramel to raisin/fig, while Munich malts have a spectrum that is more like progressively darker bread crusts, with Aromatic malt being the darkest end on that spectrum. You can certainly try substituting some Munich for Cara-malts in a recipe, but the result will likely be much different.

Also, add me to the camp that doesn’t find that Caramel malts make sweet beer. I have a funny feeling that this is an old brewing myth that dates back to when a lot more brewers were using extract, and possibly poorer quality yeast. Yes, C-malts have flavors that are reminiscent of sweet things, and that would be accentuated in an underattenuated beer, but they themselves don’t add much sweetness directly.

Very well stated! I completely agree.

[Megary]

@erockrph

To me, the spectrum of Crystal malts (very generally) goes from honey to toffee to caramel to raisin/fig, while Munich malts have a spectrum that is more like progressively darker bread crusts, with Aromatic malt being the darkest end on that spectrum. You can certainly try substituting some Munich for Cara-malts in a recipe, but the result will likely be much different.

Also, add me to the camp that doesn’t find that Caramel malts make sweet beer. I have a funny feeling that this is an old brewing myth that dates back to when a lot more brewers were using extract, and possibly poorer quality yeast. Yes, C-malts have flavors that are reminiscent of sweet things, and that would be accentuated in an underattenuated beer, but they themselves don’t add much sweetness directly.

I don’t necessarily disagree, but to the beer drinker, is there really a difference?

I honestly don’t know whether it’s just a perception of sweetness from the derived C-Malt flavors or actual sweetness from the crystallized sugars, but I think it is pretty easy to overuse (misuse) Crystal Malts.  My theory is that it gets used too much as a color aid as opposed to using it for flavor/body purposes.  Gotta get that SRM to 12, hmm, I think a pound of C60 oughta do it…

Anyway, to the OP, I think Munich is a great way to add drinkability and a bit of bready, soft pretzel maltiness to balance/replace the lip-sticking sweetness of crystal.  How much is all relative.

[erockrph]

@erockrph

To me, the spectrum of Crystal malts (very generally) goes from honey to toffee to caramel to raisin/fig, while Munich malts have a spectrum that is more like progressively darker bread crusts, with Aromatic malt being the darkest end on that spectrum. You can certainly try substituting some Munich for Cara-malts in a recipe, but the result will likely be much different.

Also, add me to the camp that doesn’t find that Caramel malts make sweet beer. I have a funny feeling that this is an old brewing myth that dates back to when a lot more brewers were using extract, and possibly poorer quality yeast. Yes, C-malts have flavors that are reminiscent of sweet things, and that would be accentuated in an underattenuated beer, but they themselves don’t add much sweetness directly.

I don’t necessarily disagree, but to the beer drinker, is there really a difference?

I honestly don’t know whether it’s just a perception of sweetness from the derived C-Malt flavors or actual sweetness from the crystallized sugars, but I think it is pretty easy to overuse (misuse) Crystal Malts.  My theory is that it gets used too much as a color aid as opposed to using it for flavor/body purposes.  Gotta get that SRM to 12, hmm, I think a pound of C60 oughta do it…

To me, there is a difference. It may be a bit subtle for some, but I certainly notice it. It’s like the ester/phenol profile that you get from hefe and Belgian strains. Banana, cloves, vanilla, etc. are all “sweet” flavors, but the beers themselves (done properly) are crisp, dry, and invite the drinker to take another sip. To me, a cloying sweetness is an attenuation problem. A well-attenuated beer with a fair amount of crystal malt doesn’t taste any sweeter to me than a well-attenuated hefeweizen/dubbel/etc.

[pete_baker (pete b)]

@erockrph

@erockrph

To me, the spectrum of Crystal malts (very generally) goes from honey to toffee to caramel to raisin/fig, while Munich malts have a spectrum that is more like progressively darker bread crusts, with Aromatic malt being the darkest end on that spectrum. You can certainly try substituting some Munich for Cara-malts in a recipe, but the result will likely be much different.

Also, add me to the camp that doesn’t find that Caramel malts make sweet beer. I have a funny feeling that this is an old brewing myth that dates back to when a lot more brewers were using extract, and possibly poorer quality yeast. Yes, C-malts have flavors that are reminiscent of sweet things, and that would be accentuated in an underattenuated beer, but they themselves don’t add much sweetness directly.

I don’t necessarily disagree, but to the beer drinker, is there really a difference?

I honestly don’t know whether it’s just a perception of sweetness from the derived C-Malt flavors or actual sweetness from the crystallized sugars, but I think it is pretty easy to overuse (misuse) Crystal Malts.  My theory is that it gets used too much as a color aid as opposed to using it for flavor/body purposes.  Gotta get that SRM to 12, hmm, I think a pound of C60 oughta do it…

To me, there is a difference. It may be a bit subtle for some, but I certainly notice it. It’s like the ester/phenol profile that you get from hefe and Belgian strains. Banana, cloves, vanilla, etc. are all “sweet” flavors, but the beers themselves (done properly) are crisp, dry, and invite the drinker to take another sip. To me, a cloying sweetness is an attenuation problem. A well-attenuated beer with a fair amount of crystal malt doesn’t taste any sweeter to me than a well-attenuated hefeweizen/dubbel/etc.

But isn’t there a correlation between crystal malt and attenuation? I thought that the killing process and I presume maillaird reactions result in crystal malt producing more unfermentable sugars and therefore higher final gravity/ lower attenuation than base malts. I detect sweetness from crystal malt at times, sometimes welcome, sometimes not.

[alestateyall (tommymorris)]

@BrewBama

I normally use 86% Pale or Pale Ale, 9% Munich or Vienna, and 5% C malt.

I have seen folks say the C malt is too sweet. I don’t see it but that’s just me. I do have a Pale Ale in the docket with 91% Pale Ale and 9% Munich which comes in at 5.9 SRM which is plenty dark for a ‘to style’ Pale Ale but I’ve not brewed it yet. I look forward to seeing how it works out.

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I am going to try your ratios for an upcoming APA.

I made a Vienna lager recently that was 95% and 5% Caramunich I. Kind of a crazy recipe. It was quite malty. Part of this idea of replacing caramel malt with Munich or Vienna comes from that beer. To me there was some overlap in that beer and beers with 5-10% caramel (C60) malt (of course the Vienna Lager had 5% Caramunich so there’s that). But it was more dry. I don’t want a pale ale with 95% Vienna but I am intrigued by say a 25% Vienna pale ale or maybe a 25% Munich I pale ale. I am not sure what I would get but I am curious.

[erockrph]

@erockrph

@erockrph

To me, the spectrum of Crystal malts (very generally) goes from honey to toffee to caramel to raisin/fig, while Munich malts have a spectrum that is more like progressively darker bread crusts, with Aromatic malt being the darkest end on that spectrum. You can certainly try substituting some Munich for Cara-malts in a recipe, but the result will likely be much different.

Also, add me to the camp that doesn’t find that Caramel malts make sweet beer. I have a funny feeling that this is an old brewing myth that dates back to when a lot more brewers were using extract, and possibly poorer quality yeast. Yes, C-malts have flavors that are reminiscent of sweet things, and that would be accentuated in an underattenuated beer, but they themselves don’t add much sweetness directly.

I don’t necessarily disagree, but to the beer drinker, is there really a difference?

I honestly don’t know whether it’s just a perception of sweetness from the derived C-Malt flavors or actual sweetness from the crystallized sugars, but I think it is pretty easy to overuse (misuse) Crystal Malts.  My theory is that it gets used too much as a color aid as opposed to using it for flavor/body purposes.  Gotta get that SRM to 12, hmm, I think a pound of C60 oughta do it…

To me, there is a difference. It may be a bit subtle for some, but I certainly notice it. It’s like the ester/phenol profile that you get from hefe and Belgian strains. Banana, cloves, vanilla, etc. are all “sweet” flavors, but the beers themselves (done properly) are crisp, dry, and invite the drinker to take another sip. To me, a cloying sweetness is an attenuation problem. A well-attenuated beer with a fair amount of crystal malt doesn’t taste any sweeter to me than a well-attenuated hefeweizen/dubbel/etc.

But isn’t there a correlation between crystal malt and attenuation? I thought that the killing process and I presume maillaird reactions result in crystal malt producing more unfermentable sugars and therefore higher final gravity/ lower attenuation than base malts. I detect sweetness from crystal malt at times, sometimes welcome, sometimes not.

I don’t have the source in front of me, but I’ve seen some tests showing that Crystal malts were nearly as fermentable as base malts when mashed, but when steeped without base malt they actually left unconverted starches behind. This would explain the apparent underattenuation when used as a steeping grain in extract brews.

Also, even if Crystal malt was only half as fermentable as base malt, at a usage rate of 10% or so that would only lead to maybe 2 or 3 extra points of FG in a typical brew. I don’t know if most beer drinkers would be able to detect that.

[pete_baker (pete b)]

@erockrph

@erockrph

@erockrph

To me, the spectrum of Crystal malts (very generally) goes from honey to toffee to caramel to raisin/fig, while Munich malts have a spectrum that is more like progressively darker bread crusts, with Aromatic malt being the darkest end on that spectrum. You can certainly try substituting some Munich for Cara-malts in a recipe, but the result will likely be much different.

Also, add me to the camp that doesn’t find that Caramel malts make sweet beer. I have a funny feeling that this is an old brewing myth that dates back to when a lot more brewers were using extract, and possibly poorer quality yeast. Yes, C-malts have flavors that are reminiscent of sweet things, and that would be accentuated in an underattenuated beer, but they themselves don’t add much sweetness directly.

I don’t necessarily disagree, but to the beer drinker, is there really a difference?

I honestly don’t know whether it’s just a perception of sweetness from the derived C-Malt flavors or actual sweetness from the crystallized sugars, but I think it is pretty easy to overuse (misuse) Crystal Malts.  My theory is that it gets used too much as a color aid as opposed to using it for flavor/body purposes.  Gotta get that SRM to 12, hmm, I think a pound of C60 oughta do it…

To me, there is a difference. It may be a bit subtle for some, but I certainly notice it. It’s like the ester/phenol profile that you get from hefe and Belgian strains. Banana, cloves, vanilla, etc. are all “sweet” flavors, but the beers themselves (done properly) are crisp, dry, and invite the drinker to take another sip. To me, a cloying sweetness is an attenuation problem. A well-attenuated beer with a fair amount of crystal malt doesn’t taste any sweeter to me than a well-attenuated hefeweizen/dubbel/etc.

But isn’t there a correlation between crystal malt and attenuation? I thought that the killing process and I presume maillaird reactions result in crystal malt producing more unfermentable sugars and therefore higher final gravity/ lower attenuation than base malts. I detect sweetness from crystal malt at times, sometimes welcome, sometimes not.

I don’t have the source in front of me, but I’ve seen some tests showing that Crystal malts were nearly as fermentable as base malts when mashed, but when steeped without base malt they actually left unconverted starches behind. This would explain the apparent underattenuation when used as a steeping grain in extract brews.

Also, even if Crystal malt was only half as fermentable as base malt, at a usage rate of 10% or so that would only lead to maybe 2 or 3 extra points of FG in a typical brew. I don’t know if most beer drinkers would be able to detect that.

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Like so many things with taste it’s probably a variety of factors that cause me to perceive sweetness in crystal malt, perhaps including an association of the flavors and aromas produced in the killing process being associated with sweetness, whether it be carmel/toffee or dried fruit. It’s not a bad thing, another tool in the toolbox.
That being said my go to grist for an apa or ipa is 80% pale malt and 20% Munich.

[Megary]

There’s a great article from the May/June 2013 Zymurgy by Agatha Feltus called Nanomashing: Investigating Specialty Grains on a Small Scale.
It seems so obvious, but before I read it, it had never occurred to me to make mini-steeps of grains and compare them both side by side and in combinations. I’ve since done it with my dark/roasty grains and some of my base malts.  Amazing what you can learn from doing this.  Very interesting read if anyone gets the time.

Anyway, she compared the run of crystal malts from light to dark and used the tasting notes to formulate a recipe for a dark mild. 
Her notes on the C-malts ran from Sweet —> slight caramel → intense caramel → toffee → prune/toffee → raisiny.  The sweetness decreased as the malt got darker at which point she noted no sweetness at all from Simpsons Extra Dark Crystal (150)

So to the OP, a little experiment like this might be a great way to take the guesswork out of the whole thing.

[denny]

There’s a great article from the May/June 2013 Zymurgy by Agatha Feltus called Nanomashing: Investigating Specialty Grains on a Small Scale.
It seems so obvious, but before I read it, it had never occurred to me to make mini-steeps of grains and compare them both side by side and in combinations. I’ve since done it with my dark/roasty grains and some of my base malts.  Amazing what you can learn from doing this.  Very interesting read if anyone gets the time.

Anyway, she compared the run of crystal malts from light to dark and used the tasting notes to formulate a recipe for a dark mild. 
Her notes on the C-malts ran from Sweet —> slight caramel → intense caramel → toffee → prune/toffee → raisiny.  The sweetness decreased as the malt got darker at which point she noted no sweetness at all from Simpsons Extra Dark Crystal (150)

So to the OP, a little experiment like this might be a great way to take the guesswork out of the whole thing.

I’ve been advocating and talking about that for 15 years.  Wrote about it in our first book.  The thing to keep in mind is that fermentation changes those flavors.

[lsales (allenhuerta)]

I’ve been wondering, since I was out of the loop not living in the area for a few years, what happened and why do we hate crystal malts? I still use them but man, I don’t know happened between when I left and got back.

[denny]

I’ve been wondering, since I was out of the loop not living in the area for a few years, what happened and why do we hate crystal malts? I still use them but man, I don’t know happened between when I left and got back.

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Seems like it just became trendy,  like hazy IPA and sour beers.

[hopfenundmalz]

I’ve been wondering, since I was out of the loop not living in the area for a few years, what happened and why do we hate crystal malts? I still use them but man, I don’t know happened between when I left and got back.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

IPAs happened.

The thinking is that the darker C malts have flavors that clash with the citrus, fruity, piney hop flavors.

Citrus and raisin flavors, not do much.

Pine and plum and dark sugar, no.

The light Crystal malts like C10 to C20 are more sweet, so that goes with citrus and fruit.

[lsales (allenhuerta)]

@hopfenundmalz

IPAs happened.

I hear what you’re saying but they were fine in IPA’s like 5+ years ago. I left the states right after Heady came out/got big and then when I came back I didn’t understand anything anymore lol

[erockrph]

@hopfenundmalz

I’ve been wondering, since I was out of the loop not living in the area for a few years, what happened and why do we hate crystal malts? I still use them but man, I don’t know happened between when I left and got back.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

IPAs happened.

The thinking is that the darker C malts have flavors that clash with the citrus, fruity, piney hop flavors.

Citrus and raisin flavors, not do much.

Pine and plum and dark sugar, no.

The light Crystal malts like C10 to C20 are more sweet, so that goes with citrus and fruit.

That’s an interesting take, but I bet some of these new fruity hops would pair quite well with darker crystal flavors, especially ones with a lot of stone fruit character.

[hopfenundmalz]

@erockrph

@hopfenundmalz

I’ve been wondering, since I was out of the loop not living in the area for a few years, what happened and why do we hate crystal malts? I still use them but man, I don’t know happened between when I left and got back.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

IPAs happened.

The thinking is that the darker C malts have flavors that clash with the citrus, fruity, piney hop flavors.

Citrus and raisin flavors, not do much.

Pine and plum and dark sugar, no.

The light Crystal malts like C10 to C20 are more sweet, so that goes with citrus and fruit.

That’s an interesting take, but I bet some of these new fruity hops would pair quite well with darker crystal flavors, especially ones with a lot of stone fruit character.

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I agree with your comment. Strata might be the one to try with darker crystal malt. There are a couple of others.

The general notion was first talked about by Vinnie Cilurzu about 10 years ago. It worked with the hops he was using. He was correct.

I was looking at some historic Barley Perkins recipes this evening. The amount of dark Crystal malts and Invert Sugars was something that bucks the current trends. The hops were Fuggles and EKG so it would work.

[Saccharomyces]

What I have noticed with the IPA surge is that beer is losing its malt backbone.  Most American IPAs are way out of balance.

[denny]

@Saccharomyces

What I have noticed with the IPA surge is that beer is losing its malt backbone.  Most American IPAs are way out of balance.

Balance is a personal preference.

[Saccharomyces]

@denny

Balance is a personal preference.

I guess that there is some truth in that statement, but what I am tasting today leaves a lot to the imagination with respect to it being a malt-based beverage.  Pretty much all I taste and smell is hops.  It is not even bitterness per so.  The flavor is almost all late hop additions.  If one cannot taste the malt in beer, than it is a stunt, not beer.

[denny]

@Saccharomyces

@denny

Balance is a personal preference.

I guess that there is some truth in that statement, but what I am tasting today leaves a lot to the imagination with respect to it being a malt-based beverage.  Pretty much all I taste and smell is hops.  It is not even bitterness per so.  The flavor is almost all late hop additions.  If one cannot taste the malt in beer, than it is a stunt, not beer.

I agree, but I don’t see it as a universal issue.  In just had several IPAs from Long Beach brewing in LA that were masterpieces of balance.  Lots of malt flavor, including honey malt, but wonderful forward hop flavor and aroma with a bracing bitterness. I’ve said it before, but you can’t judge all beer just by what you find locallly.