Is it known what the origins of commercially available bretts from Wyeast and White Labs are?
I assume the “Trois” is Drie Fonteinen? How about the other ones?
White Labs’ Brett Trois was allegedly Brett brux var Trois from Drie Fonteinen, but there has been some controversy about that recently:
That is the only commercial Brett strain that I have heard a source for, but others may have info that I’m not familiar with.
That’s very interesting.
Interesting! It’s just that Unclebrazzie and myself are contemplating brewing a Supplication inspired beer, and supposedly three strains of brett are pitched at some point…
I will say that using WL’s Brett Trois in secondary got me zero Brett character even over a year. They have marketed it as a strain for Brett-primary beers, and this seems to make sense in light of the current information.
So we’ll skip the Trois. This leaves us with the Brett. Bruxellensis and Lambicus as pure brett strains? And maybe pluck some yeasties out of the sky?
White labs also offers Brett clausenii. I’m not sure if some of the smaller yeast banks like East Coast Yeast and Gigayeast offer other Brett strains isolated from commercial or wild samples.
Both of the Brett B./Brett L. strains offered by Wyeast are also in their Roselare blend.
If you like the Brett character of Supplication, why not use Supplication bottle dregs?
That’s the way Supplication is made: first ale yeast, then brett+ sour cherries, and then bacteria. So in the third phase dregs can be added.
Interesting. Last September I pitched a 500 mL starter (no stir plate) of active brett trois into a keg of saison (dried out to 1.005) and within 6 weeks at room temps the beer was very funky. The WL vials have such a small amount of brett in them that you really almost have to wake it up first to get quicker results. At least IME.
I’ve two batches of beer sitting on Brett brux in secondary for half a year now, and neither of them has released any funk. A mild tanginess maybe, but no funk, barnyard or other Bretty-characteristics.
That being said:
Trois is indeed a strain cultivated from Drie Fonteinen Oude Geuze (I think Mike Tonsmeire mentions this somewhere in American Sour Beers).
Here’s a comprehensive list.
Also: these guys seem pretty deep into yeast…as are these guys.
Which brett did you use? Any idea why and how can it be avoided?
Ive had recent good luck with both Roselare pitched straight, no starter, and with doing a 1 week lacto at 90-100º then dropping to 68º and pitching Brett L. Both have plenty of acid and cherry-pie brettiness. The difference is the Roselare takes 8 months to a year kettle to glass, and the lacto-brett L was ready in 3 months.
Because that’s what I had, and don’t pitch it?
What precisely do you/we want to avoid? The yeast? The Brettiness? The absence of Brettiness?
From what Wyeast would have me believe, the brux strain should produce typical Bretty horse sweat flavours and all that. One brew (the dreaded vomit Gose) contains a plethora or oraganic precursors for Brett to convert into esters. The other’s got a lots of fruit. Neither is showing any horseblanket character at all, and only very very mild acidity (more tart than acidic, but that’s explainable by the lack of oxygen present).
The more I think about it, and the more (or as the case may be, less) information I find lying about the place, the more I get the feeling that Brett fermentation is still very much in the Godisgood stage. We seem to have little understanding of the specifics of fermenting wuith Bretts and even of the peculiarities of Brett’s metabolism, and quite a few pitching schedules (like Vinnie’s elaborate “Sacch followed by Brett followed by Lacto&Pedio plus two more Bretts”) seem almost like a clever ruse to give a semblance of reproducibility to the whole affair.
Almost as if “Just pitch some dregs from whatever sour your have on hand” sounds too un-scientific.
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IME temperature, cell count, and culture health are the major factors in flavor development from brettanomyces.
For most brett strains I’ve used, regardless of count/health, flavor development slows down significantly (or just stops altogether) somewhere around 60F. This is a pretty big generalization with some exceptions, but a good rule of thumb if you’re unfamiliar with a strain. I like to condition around 65F-68F.
Cell count and culture health go hand-in-hand. Pitching a relatively fresh vial or pack normally gives enough viable cells to eventually establish a healthy culture within the beer. Propagating a healthy and active slurry before pitching can dramatically speed up flavor development. Bottle dregs especially benefit from a few prop steps before pitching, and even more so if pitching into fermented beer.
Acidity and flavor from bacteria is a whole different story.
Check this out! It appears that Brett trois from WL is actually a sacch. strain and maybe a new species!
Yeah I’ve seen those reports but some claim the independent test Omega Labs had done has some flaws. White Labs is also having an independent test done on the strain that is supposed to be more accurate but it isn’t done (or the results haven’t been released yet). I’ve also seen pictures of fermentations with 100% Brettanomyces bruxellensis trois that have pellicles. So if it’s not brett it may be a cool saccharomyces strain. Regardless, the flavor profile of Brett brux trois sounds good so I just ordered three vials of it for a “farmhouse” ale with 100% “brett.”
You won’t regret it…this Saison was barreled (after primary fermentation with T-58) three months ago with Brett Trois and a little maltodextrin for it to chew on. It smells and tastes like Brett, and the pellicle is a constant amazement to me.
^Mmmmm. Looks awesome. If that’s not Brett it’s still cool stuff. White Labs apparently got their Trois from a “reputable source” (I found a post from the source but can’t remember who it was) from Avery 15. BSI Drie is supposed to be the same strain but I don’t know where BSI got their sample from.
Edit: according to Chad Yakobson (The Brettanomyces Project; Crooked Stave). He got his sample from Avery 15 bottle dregs which Avery got from BSI, who cultured it from bottle dregs of Drie Fonteinen gueuze. White Labs got it from someone who sourced it from from Avery 15 dregs but I still haven’t found the post from the person who gave it to White Labs. I thought it was on BBB.