Not sure where to put this so I guess here will do.
I’ve had my 2nd batch that has a strong phenolic off-flavour. One was a lager, this one was an APA. The hops are almost non-apparent and the phenols are dominant. It’s going down the drain.
But any idea what bacteria would be causing this? I’ve gotten rid of most of my plastics and I’m going to get rid of the rest (what ticks me off a lot is that I re-pitched this into a 10 gal batch recently after kegging the APA. I didn’t notice any issues then but I’m pretty sure I’ll eventually be dumping that too).
Any advice on how to clean both of the kegs that have had this? The lager is actually still sitting in the keg. I have new rings etc so I will be replacing these but is there a preferred cleaner etc for bacterial issues?
Plastic probably isn’t your issue. As long as you’re using food grade plastic which is what most homebrew shops sell.
Phenolics can come from a few different sources such as fermentation, grains, water source, infection, chlorine etc. What kind of phenolic flavors are you getting? Spicy? Clove? Band-aid? Tannic? That could help narrow it down. My guess, since the beer is an APA and you aren’t getting any hop character, is infection. And if you don’t notice it prior to kegging, I’m assuming it’s happening somewhere in the keg. I would always take apart the posts and dip tubes to clean, sanitize and reassemble between each batch. There are quite a few good cleaners and sanitizers out there. I use PBW to clean and Star San to sanitize. Hope that helps.
I have no doubt it’s an infection. I have a contaminated plastic bucket. Flavour is akin to a Belgian style beer but with the wrong yeast. I don’t believe it came from the keg.
Alright, I was under the impression you wanted help diagnosing it. I suppose a thorough cleaning is in order. Like I said before, the pbw/star san combo has never failed me.
Yeah, nuke it with pbw and starsan. Completely disassemble and clean everything. Brush out the diptubes. You may not have to replace the o-rings if they look like they are in decent shape, but they’re cheap so you might as well.
Oh, and as for what is causing it - hard to say. It could be wild yeast or some contaminating bacteria. Either way, it should die with a good cleaning.
I recently joined the “I hate plastic” club after way too many contaminated batches. I switched to glass carboys last year and will never look back again.
Sorry it was pretty late when I replied and the whole situation has me ticked off.
I will order some PBW. I thought maybe something stronger might be needed.
Trouble is, I’m also in the I hate glass camp too. Heavy and hard to clean.
We had a good bonus year so I think a couple Brewhemoth conicals are coming. Will keep some carboys for one off brews.
+1 Tried buckets for a couple years. Back to glass. Heavy is not an issue for me. With a carboy brush and drill-mounted scrubber, cleaning is no problem. Safety? Haven’t broke one in 20 years of brewing and I do more dangerous things than handling glass carboys(like driving) every day. I still make clean beer in those 20 year old carboys regularly. And I just love to watch the fermentation!
Not to raise the debate but I’m a huge fan of plastic, been using the same buckets for over 5 years with no infections in a single batch. They get soaked in OXY, sanitized with Star San and work perfectly fine. IME I find that infections are usually associated with something else in the process like spigots, tubing, keg set ups, infected starters, bottles, etc.
+1 I was going to reply, “Replace your hoses”. I also have a plate chiller that I forgot to sanitize once. Don’t know what your setup is, but the hoses are what has gotten me in the past. I think my garage has its own Wild Yeast hanging out in there.
After knowing two people with severe ligament damage, I use plastic 99% of the time. I have been using the same two six gallon better bottles for 3 years without issue.
to further derail this… I don’t use plastic fermenters not because of fear of infection but because of flavor and aroma absorption. I was finding I would get flavor carry overs from the buckets. Even after doing things like 3 month long PBW soaks etc… I switched to almost all stainless. I will say that the better bottle plastic seems less porous than the bucket plastic and doesn’t seem to absorb as much.
The phenolics could be due to a seasonal water change? Perhaps more chlorine being used? Ferm temps? Or it could just be said infection. I would take the kegs apart wash with PBW and then fill about half way with sanitizer and leave them upright for a few days…and upside down for a few days (add pressure to the keg so they don’t leak).
I’d also wonder whether water had a part to play in those off flavors.
I find phenolic off flavors are usually related to a wild yeast contamination but that doesn’t necessarily mean it can’t be bacterial. As others have said, careful and details cleaning and sanitation will resolve the problem.
Wild yeast is my guess. When it has happened to me, it has been pretty persistent.
I do an annual equipment refresh, replacing all hoses, boiling everything small, and hitting everything big with a different sanitizer (Iodophor instead of StarSan, as AmandaK suggested). I think the temporary sanitizer switch is important if it’s wild yeast, which I think is harder to kill with those products than bacteria.
I dislike both plastic and glass for all the reasons mentioned. I ferment in Cornelius kegs. They’re not trivial to clean, but still easier than carboys in my opinion.
