Poor efficiency/very soft water

So to some degree I will agree with your statement but I do not think my final reply is misleading at all or erroneous as the OP does need to refine his process to improve his efficiency. I am not really sure your assessment of 50% would be true based on steeping at 130 for 30 minutes, adjusting temps and then taking more wort then necessary from having to raise the temp (Really diluted wort) into the kettle.

This thread to me, having re-read it again, sounds as though more contribution was given to steeped grains then realistic, too much wort was collected making a diluted wort, not enough was boiled off and total efficiency suffered as a result, hence my suggestion to improve overall process. The Op’s pre-boil gravity was stated as spot on and that is because all the gravity came from the recipe’s DME/LME, not the grains. Once the OP then added the steeped grain wort with the extra water added he threw everything off and it wasn’t accounted for. (At least this is how I am reading it, perhaps the OP might clarify in response)

I suppose we are both nitpicking or semantics are getting in the way, hard to say since some of the info is a little disjointed… :-\

No, I disagree with all you are saying. You are trying to help but there seems to be lots of confusion.  Those grains do not need to be mashed, steeping temperature is irrelevant, 5 minutes in room temp water will easily allow for 80% plus extraction of the sugars with a decent crush(the muslin bag was my 50%).  It is not his recipe, nor does it have unrealistic gravity expectations from the grains. 2 pounds at 50% extract efficiency would add about 32 points to 5 gallons, raising the og by a little over 6 points.  His process is sound, his thermometer failed him, even though he doesn’t even need one. I don’t know where the op talks about his postboil volumes or “overall efficiency” you reference. Hope this helps clear up something :-\

Doesn’t the pound of Munich need to be mashed?

the op mentions later that the munich was actually LME.

He clarified that the Munich was extract.

No one said he should mash those grains.  The OP said he mashed.  He appears to be unclear on mashing. If the OP wants to worry about efficiency and extraction, he should mash grains that will convert.  Steeping I would not worry about.  For me, that’s the take away here.  Relax, you’re not mashing.  You’ll get what you get from steeping.

You are correct, though, that there are sugars in the roasted grains.  Will those sugars give 6 points?  It’s possible, but we don’t know what he was expecting nor what he acheived.  I don’t know your source for steeping grains for 5 minutes in room temp water, but if that works for you, great.  I’ve never before heard anyone discuss the efficiency of steeping.  IME, one does not steep grains to get fermentables but to get the flavor contributions to make an extract beer more complex.

As far as process being sound, if you are correct that you can extract 80% of sugar in a 5 minute steep than there must be something wrong in his process if he only got 30% in a much longer steep.  Perhaps his gravity readings are off?

Overall, I think worrying about the gravity contribution of 2.25lbs of steeped grains in an extract batch containing 9.5lbs of extract is letting the tail wag the dog.

Then you and I will just agree to disagree.

To the OP,
If you care to chime in again it would be a great help to see the recipe. It would help to get the expected OG and FG and what was to be expected as well as the expected and actual volumes you obtained. As it stands what you have provided thus far is somewhat vague. It would also help to know if this was partial or full boil as currently I am assuming full boil since you noted 7.5 gallons pre-boil.

Chapter 13 - Steeping Specialty Grains

13.2 Mechanics of Steeping
To use the caramel and roasted specialty malts, the grain must be crushed to expose the sugars to the water. While the grain is soaking, the hot water is leaching the sugars out of the grain and dissolving them into the wort. The factors that influence how well the sugars are extracted are the steeping time, temperature and the particle size. Obviously, the finer you crush the malt the more completely you can extract the sugars. However, most supply shops have their mills adjusted for mashing and lautering purposes and if the particle size where much smaller, it would be difficult to contain within the grainbag.

Table 10 - Nominal Malt Steeping Yields in Points/Pound/Gallon

Malt Type

PPG Steep

Brown Malt

8*

Dextrin Malt

4*

Light Crystal (10 - 15L)

14*

Pale Crystal (25 - 40L)

22

Medium Crystal (60 - 75L)

18

Dark Crystal (120L)

16

Special B

16

Chocolate Malt

15

Roast Barley

21

Black Patent Malt
21

Malto - Dextrin Powder

(40)

Sugar (Corn, Cane)

(46)
Steeping data is experimental and was obtained by steeping 1 lb. in 1 gal at 160°F for 30 minutes. All malts were crushed in a 2 roller mill at the same setting.

From a book you might have heard of, or maybe not ::)  “How To Brew”. You can read it on line. The OP referenced this book as well as the recipe was from “Brewing Classic Styles”.  The flavor contributions you want come from the sugars. Make beer however you want.

I’m not sure what you’re arguing.  Time and temp doesn’t matter (according to Repo), except it does (reference Repo’s quote from “How to Brew” a book I may have heard of).

Rather than attempt to create an argument how about some constructive advice?

If his process is sound and steeping is as simple as running room temp water over grains (your contention), why is his gravity low?  Do you have advice for the OP?  Or do you prefer to argue with those of us who have attempted to give advice?

I stand by my previous statements.  The gravity he will get from steeping grains is not something to worry about.  He is not mashing, so worrying about the efficiency of his steep is worrying too much.  He will not extract significant fermentable sugars from steeping and that is not the point of steeping.  If he wants to mash, he should go ahead and do it but the grains he is steeping are not grains you mash.

Your turn.  Constructive this time.

"con·struc·tive
adjective \kən-ˈstrək-tiv\

: helping to develop or improve something : helpful to someone instead of upsetting and negative"

From the Merriam Webster dictionary.  A book you may have heard of.

This was a full boil.  If you have access to Brewing Classic Styles, it’s the Robust Porter recipe.  I think I mentioned the recipe in earlier posts.  I was not precise in measuring the volumes, and my 30% efficiency could be off by ±5%.  Something that I learned from this thread was that I’m not really mashing but steeping.  I called it mashing, because I thought I was actually getting fermentable sugars from the steep, but you guys have taught that I’m really just getting flavor/color.

I’m not sure what you’re arguing.  Time and temp doesn’t matter (according to Repo), except it does (reference Repo’s quote from “How to Brew” a book I may have heard of).

Rather than attempt to create an argument how about some constructive advice?

If his process is sound and steeping is as simple as running room temp water over grains (your contention), why is his gravity low?  Do you have advice for the OP?  Or do you prefer to argue with those of us who have attempted to give advice?

I stand by my previous statements.  The gravity he will get from steeping grains is not something to worry about.  He is not mashing, so worrying about the efficiency of his steep is worrying too much.  He will not extract significant fermentable sugars from steeping and that is not the point of steeping.  If he wants to mash, he should go ahead and do it but the grains he is steeping are not grains you mash.

Your turn.  Constructive this time.

"con·struc·tive
adjective \kən-ˈstrək-tiv\

: helping to develop or improve something : helpful to someone instead of upsetting and negative"

From the Merriam Webster dictionary.  A book you may have heard of.

[/quote]

lol, I am sure JP would change a few things in his book.  The quote was for the extract efficiency chart from steeping grains, you “never heard anyone talk of before”  I have offered advice. Not following yours here will help him improve his brewing in this particular instance, sorry if that upsets you.
[
[/quote]

This is some misleading and erroneous advice. There is absolutely no need to mash those grains, and you will absolutely get some gravity points from steeping them. The starches have already been converted by the maltster.  While 30% is a little low, 50% would probably be an average  expectation for a muslin bag of those grains. It is very difficult to get all the sugars out of a “ball” of grain.

[/quote]

NNNNNNOOOOOO
No fermentable sugars, then what is the 30 +/- 5 %???

You are familiar with long-chain unfermentable sugars, right?

From “How to Brew.”

Chapter 20 - Experiment!
20.1 Increasing the Body

Very often brewers say that they like a beer but wish it had more body. What exactly is “more body”? Is it a physically heavier, more dense beer? More flavor? More viscosity? In most cases it means a higher final gravity (FG), but not at the expense of incomplete fermentation. On a basic level, adding unfermentables is the only way to increase the FG and increase the body/weight/mouthfeel of the beer. There are two types of unfermentables that can be added: unfermentable sugars and proteins.

Unfermentable sugars are highly caramelized sugars, like those in caramel malts, and long chain sugars referred to as dextrins. Dextrin malt and malto-dextrin powder have been previously mentioned in the ingredients chapters. Dextrins are tasteless carbohydrates that hang around, adding some weight and viscosity to the beer. The effect is fairly limited and some brewers suspect that dextrins are a leading cause of “beer farts,” when these otherwise unfermentable carbohydrates are finally broken down in the intestines.

Dark caramel and roasted malts like Crystal 80, Crystal 120, Special B, Chocolate Malt, and Roast Barley have a high proportion of unfermentable sugars due to the high degree of caramelization (or charring). The total soluble extract (percent by weight) of these malts is close to that of base malt, but just because it’s soluble does not mean it is fermentable. These sugars are only partially fermentable and contribute both a residual sweetness and higher FG to the finished beer. These types of sugars do not share dextrin’s digestive problems and the added flavor and color make for a more interesting beer. The contribution of unfermentable sugars from enzymatic and caramel malts can be increased by mashing at a higher temperature (i.e. 158°F) where the beta amylase enzyme is deactivated. Without this enzyme, the alpha amylase can only produce large sugars (including dextrins) from the starches and the wort is not as fermentable. The result is a higher final gravity and more body.

Proteins are also unfermentable and are the main contributor to the mouthfeel of a beer. Compare an oatmeal stout to a regular stout and you will immediately notice the difference. There is a special term for these mouthfeel-enhancing proteins - “medium-sized proteins.” During the protein rest, peptidase breaks large proteins into medium proteins and protease breaks medium proteins into small proteins. In a standard well-modified malt, a majority of the large proteins have already been broken down into medium and small proteins. A protein rest is not necessary for further protein breakdown, and in fact, would degrade the beer’s mouthfeel. A protein rest to produce medium-sized proteins for increased body is only practical when brewing with moderately-modified malts, wheat, or oatmeal, which are loaded with large proteins.

To add more body to an extract-based beer, add more caramel malt or some malto-dextrin powder. You can also increase the total amount of fermentables in the recipe which will raise both the OG and FG, and give you a corresponding increase in alcohol too.

Grain brewers can add dextrin malt, caramel malt, unmalted barley or oatmeal in addition to using the methods above. Grain brewing lends more flexibility in fine tuning the wort than extract brewing.

[quote=“, post:32, topic:15143”]

You are familiar with long-chain unfermentable sugars, right?

From “How to Brew.”

Chapter 20 - Experiment!
20.1 Increasing the Body

.

Dark caramel and roasted malts like Crystal 80, Crystal 120, Special B, Chocolate Malt, and Roast Barley have a high proportion of unfermentable sugars due to the high degree of caramelization (or charring). The total soluble extract (percent by weight) of these malts is close to that of base malt, but just because it’s soluble does not mean it is fermentable. These sugars are only partially fermentable and contribute both a residual sweetness and higher FG to the finished beer.

What exactly are you trying to say???

You’re obtuse or your trolling.  Read your last post in it’s entirety, including the quotes.  I think it’s quite clear.

You’ve also yet to offer anything constructive.

This has been fun.  Enjoy your weekend.  I’ll join in for awhile next time.

That you believe no fermentable sugars come from Caramel or roasted malts???
Yeah get some sleep. Enjoy the holidays.