I agree with all of this. I did take Mark’s remarks on bleach to heart. I’ve used Star San mixed with distilled water for a long time. I did however, just sanitize all my equipment with bleach last week just to make sure. I will do so periodically just for piece of mind. Sometimes I’m blown away with the technical knowledge floating around this forum.
I’m pretty convinced that cleaning is way more important than sanitizing. I think a lot of infections come from organic matter several cells thick on hard to clean pieces of equipment, not on the wrong choice of Sanitizer.
Beerstone/Calcium oxalate can trap biological contaminants or so I’ve read. It can be a pain to remove without the proper chemicals and mechanical action. Side-track note - sorry.
I think that sanitation chemicals are supposed to close the gap between the limits of cleaning and a biologically clean surface. I suppose that what you ask of them is directly related to what you might expect to be left after cleaning. I don’t really know what one might expect to be left.
If the sanitizing agent just puts certain organisms in stasis, then you’d expect that any of these introduced with the water in the sanitizing mix to become active once their environment becomes wort.
In an ideal world you’d want the agent to denature the organisms DNA. That’s what UV is supposed to do I think.
Bleach certainly can’t hurt, as it is more broad spectrum than the sanitizers I tested, but it is also more sensitive to organic material than the sanitizers I tested here. That means that cleaning is even more critical before bleach.
Of note, bleach is sporicidal, while Iodophor, Star San and even ethanol or isopropanol are not considered sporicidal. The caveat is that any disinfectant requires an extended contact time, and possibly higher concentrations, to kill off spores. Bleach needs a 10 minute contact time at a higher concentration (5000 ppm, IIRC) to be effective against spores.
There may be more of a grain of salt to your claim. There was a period of time where I stopped sanitizing my kegs. I used old-school unscented powdered automatic dishwasher detergent, which is an incredibly good cleaner if one can still find it. Old-school powdered automatic dishwasher detergent is basically PBW at a much lower price point. My water supply was chlorinated, and I would crank my hot water heater up to 140F on brewing and kegging days. That’s hot enough to render hot water vegetative cell free. I had to completely revamp my process when I moved to a house with a non-chlorinated water supply.
So the best means of sterilization(at home) would be with Sodium or Calcium hypochlorite. AKA Bleach…
http://www.cdc.gov/hicpac/Disinfection_Sterilization/6_0disinfection.html
CDC Disinfection and Sterilization (To Highlight)
Bleach
-They have a broad spectrum of antimicrobial activity, do not leave toxic residues, are unaffected by water hardness, are inexpensive and fast acting 328, remove dried or fixed organisms and biofilms from surfaces 465, and have a low incidence of serious toxicity
-The microbicidal activity of chlorine is attributed largely to undissociated hypochlorous acid (HOCl). The dissociation of HOCI to the less microbicidal form (hypochlorite ion OCl¯) depends on pH. The disinfecting efficacy of chlorine decreases with an increase in pH that parallels the conversion of undissociated HOCI to OCl¯ 329, 526.
-Alternative compounds that release chlorine and are used in the health-care setting include demand-release chlorine dioxide, sodium dichloroisocyanurate, and chloramine-T. The advantage of these compounds over the hypochlorites is that they retain chlorine longer and so exert a more prolonged bactericidal effect. Sodium dichloroisocyanurate tablets are stable, and for two reasons … First, with sodium dichloroisocyanurate, only 50% of the total available chlorine is free (HOCl and OCl¯), whereas the remainder is combined (monochloroisocyanurate or dichloroisocyanurate), and as free available chlorine is used up, the latter is released to restore the equilibrium. Second, solutions of sodium dichloroisocyanurate are acidic, whereas sodium hypochlorite solutions are alkaline, and the more microbicidal type of chlorine (HOCl) is believed to predominate 530-533.
-chlorine (e.g., HOCl, OCl-, and elemental chlorine-Cl2) have a biocidal effect on mycoplasma (25 ppm) and vegetative bacteria (<5 ppm) in seconds in the absence of an organic load 329, 418. Higher concentrations (1,000 ppm) of chlorine are required to kill M. tuberculosis using the Association of Official Analytical Chemists (AOAC) tuberculocidal test 73. A concentration of 100 ppm will kill ≥99.9% of B. atrophaeus spores within 5 minutes 541, 542 and destroy mycotic agents in <1 hour 329.
-Data are available for chlorine dioxide that support manufacturers’ bactericidal, fungicidal, sporicidal, tuberculocidal, and virucidal label claims
All that being reiterated from the CDC I know chlorinated water does not make good tasting beer. But for means of sterilization prior to a rinse of in distilled water and then air tight (means of a bung and an air lock) with a medium like an PBW/Star San. Then there is the environmental consideration. How big of a risk are you at with wild yeast where you are brewing? I mean a clean environment (not a barn) with clean materials, followed with a standard sanitation seems to be working for thousands of us. I am bottling with starsan and am currently sterilizing metal utensils in the oven, then to the starsan. Fermenters are getting bleach water, as well as my racking equipment before a dip in the starsan. I have also considered Isopropyl Alcohol @91% concentration prior to rise, and then air tight Or Ethyl Alcohol, harder to find though. But apparently that does nothing for mold spores.
Then what about acetic acid? Commerical concentration as a means of sterilizing? I know nothing about its effects it would take on the fermentation process nor how it reacts with yeast
Peracetic acid is a quality sanitizer (1 Tbs hydrogen peroxide + 1 tsp vinegar + 1 gallon water).
I had a mold problem when I used only Star San as my sanitizer. I had the mold problem arise in extended primaries (more than a month) in a certain plastic barrel primary fermenter. I couldn’t explain it and just quit using the fermenter. I thought a long soak in PBW and a Star San application would be sufficient, but in the middle of the summer the short window of exposure was enough to cause the mold spores to make contact and then await completion of yeast fermentation before reproducing and taking hold to a level that became evident by taste (and visually).
That’s where I am headed. Peracetic acid is a highly effective oxidizer, and it breaks down into much more environmentally friendly byproducts than the halogen-based sanitizers. Plus, your comment about not allowing halogenated solvents to come into contact with piranha solution has me seriously thinking about my use of halogens.
Broke down and purchased a 5 gallon bucket of powdered peracetic acid last week.
Awaiting delivery now. Will report back once I have a used this.
i’m a fan of hot water and elbow grease.
Me too. Squeaky clean, starsan, occasionally iodophor. Not going to play amateur chemist, and refuse to introduce chlorine.
I too would steer well away from having hypochlorite anywhere near the brewery. Chemist or otherwise…
When mixing up this formula for paracetic acid, how long will it last? Is it a use right away thing or could you mix a gallon and keep a container handy?
I’m not sold on peracetic acid. I found a paper from an Ag Extension that showed the contact times for mold and spores is quite long (20+ min) unless the concentration is upwards of 300ppm. What is the strength of the solution using the above recipe? Bacteria on the other hand was killed quickly at low concentrations while yeast was middle of the road.
I am also not too fond of oxidizer as a sanitizer.
Depends on the strength of your vinegar but assuming grocery store strength (6-8%) the above will give approximately 150 ppm peracetic acid. I don’t use this as a quick rinse solution. I primarily use it as a carboy soak at the beginning of the brew day so contact time is not an issue.
People’s fear of hypochlorite is a bit overblown. In a dilute solution the decomposition products are primarily NaCl (salt) and hydroxyl radical (.OH). The hydroxyl radical will eat up organics (crud) to produce water and carboxyl terminated (oxidized) organics or else it self reacts to produce water and oxygen. So your end decomposition products are salt, water, oxygen and chewed up organic crud.
For maximum effectiveness I’d use it fresh made.
That is what I thought its product were, but there are easy ways to dissolve Cl or NH2Cl out of an liq./aq solution am I right? Campden tablets (sodium or potassium metabisulfite)? which takes care of some bacteria in your beer, and is a buffer for oxidation in fermentation plus precipitates chlorine and chloramine out of your brew water. I am sure it is not fool proof, but when the fool drinks beer he can get drunk either way…
Another way which is used by some sanitary engineers with their waste water is Ascorbic Acid (1 gram to 100 gallons) or .01g/gallon I believe
C5H5O5CH2OH + HOCL → C5H3O5CH2OH + HCl + H2O
Ascorbic acid + Hypochlorous acid → Dehydroascorbic acid + Hydrochloric acid + water
and Sodium Ascorbate (2.8:1 C5H5O5CH2ONa:HOCl) doesn’t effect the pH of the water
C5H5O5CH2ONa + HOCL → C5H3O5CH2OH + NaCl + H2O
Sodium ascorbate + Hypochlorous acid → Dehydroascorbic acid + Sodium chloride + water
while Ascorbic Acid (Your Vitamin C) will lower the pH and often is used to lower pH in beer anyway.
I mean… Right??