Secret ingredient for Dark German Lagers

Hmmm…

I captured this from a 2012 presentation by Kai in Australia

I remember him talking about oxidized flavors being good for dark beers. I remember him saying dark beers benefitted from warm storage for short periods. I never practiced it though lol

He was pouring a Doppelbock at NHC 2010 Minneapolis that was full of dark fruit flavors. It had been bottled, don’t remember for how long.

Dark fruit flavors is one thing. Kibbles and soy sauce is another. It comes down to the difference between beer that is just slightly oxidized and beer that is mishandled and oxidized.

I’ve had a quite a bit of the latter in commercial examples. I do get pretty fresh bottles of Korbinian from time to time that are marvelous, and Spaten Optimator, while kind of bland, is usually very fresh as well.

If you search the forum, you’ll see a VERY lengthy thread on the topic.  IIRC, Kai finally concluded that maybe it wasn’t oxidation.

Given enough time, all beer will become oxidized in most packaging. I agree that aging is important for developing that character. I agree with Kai that low oxygen brewing is not ideal for all styles. But I’d rather produce beer that is initially on the low side of the oxidation equation and have it age into it, rather than being over the hill and never realizing a good beer.

In the sound bite he said there was a point of diminishing returns. It just floored me when he started talking about oxidation as the secret ingredient.

Yea.  He was wrong, and that’s ok.  We are all wrong sometimes.

Thanks for sharing this.  It’s been tossed around for decades whether aging on the shelf is what gives lagers “that German flavor”, or “it”.  I’m sure many will say “no way in hell, that’s totally wrong”.  But, why not experiment and find out.  I don’t have the answers on this.  I’ll just say what I always say: more experiments are needed.

No way in hell, that’s totally wrong.  :slight_smile:

Let’s do an experiment. I’ll drink all the fresh German lager and you try the aged ones and we’ll compare notes.  :wink:

In all seriousness though, if you have ever tasted the Kibbles’N’Bits/Soy Sauce Doppelbock that is naturally or artificially made past its prime through age or poor handling, you know that is is not “that German flavor”. In fact, there isn’t anything elusive about it at all. You can get poorly handled continental beers everywhere you go.

Kai was talking very controlled oxidation as well, with a very clean, well brewed beer as the base. You can mimic some of the hallmark flavors of Doppelbock through caramalt selection as well, which is probably a better idea as you don’t need to introduce oxygen to get there.

I have never tasted dog food or soy sauce in a German beer.  Never.  But maybe I just have a sh**ty palate.

Maybe, but that’s not the point: Kai’s example assumes a well made, well cared for beer. The oxidation was introduced in a controlled environment. That doesn’t translate to the average distributed commercial beer in our country.

Let’s be clear here: I love Belgian beer of all kinds, the Trappists in particular. Oxidation is something that we deal with even in our favorite beers. Even if they are well made, you get cap/cork ingress no matter what. It’s kind of part of the game.

As long as we make that distinction between controlled oxidation and poor handling/distribution practices, we are good.

I’m finding it difficult to get on your page.  Oxidation is a chemical reaction.  The oxidation doesn’t know if it was controlled or poorly handled.

But I’ll probably just politely duck out of the conversation now.  Maybe.

It’s accelerated by it’s environment. If I take a beer in a controlled experiment like Kai’s where temperature, etc. are held constant, then that is totally different than beer being distributed with variable temperatures in transport, on the shelf, light exposure, etc. You have control over one and not the other.

I’m not sure it matters.  As I basically said previously, if it tastes good, I’ll drink it, either way.  And it does, so I do.

Sure. I’m not saying it’s a bad thing. Everyone has their preferences. Just trying to make the distinction.

I have a friend that likes all kinds of beer including very stale, very oxidized brews.

He’ll deliberately leave a few bottles in his fridge for a year, two years or more, and I’m not talking just barley wines either.

He recently served me a 10-year vintage brown wet, stale cardboard, sherry-like liquid.

You know what they say; different strokes for different folks.

I’ve had soy sauce Doppelbocks, unfortunately, and they are not good at all. I’ve had doppelbocks with some sherry notes, and I have generally enjoyed them - as sippers. And I’ve had fresh doppelbocks that are downright dangerous because they go down so easily.

I enjoy sherry notes in certain styles (barleywines, generally), but even in these styles oxidation can easily be overdone. Take, for example, Sam Adams’ ill-fated Triple Bock from back in the day. Even after only a few months of aging it took on an overpowering soy sauce character that cannot be aged out (trust me, I had a bottle that I sat on for a good 15 years or so). I blame their choice of a cork stopper for this.

I guess my point is that while oxidation might not always be the enemy, the places where it may be desired are few and far between. And even then, you still need to have control over the situation. While my precious Thomas Hardy collection is still drinking well at almost 15 years old, I’ve had 25-year old samples that were undrinkable.

Likewise, I had a 74 year old Ballantine Burton ale that was barely recognizable as beer.  OTOH, I took first place at the OR State Fair with a 6 year old barleywine that was definitely showing signs of oxidation…in a good way.  It all depends on the beer and the tastes of the drinker.

My opinion. Sam Adams triple bock started out tasting like soy sauce. Time could not improve it.

Different beers. Different tastes. Different storage and handling will all impact how it oxidizes.