So the first thread got really long, and I realized I couldn’t remember what conclusions we came to. There was some conflicting info, which I think is why this topic hasn’t been settled. I read through the thread again, and took some notes:
Necessary things:
noble hops
decoction (or not)
huge starter
low mash pH (5.2)
late hop additions
sulfury yeast
lager on the yeast cake
German ingredients
aerate well
FWH
aroma hops @ 10-15min or aroma hops @ 5min
extended aging (or not)
IIRC, Kai’s conclusion was that it’s the aging.
I guess that I missed a recommendation for a 5.2 mash pH. I feel that would be a little lower than desirable to promote that malt backbone that I like in the styles. Low pH improves the fermentability and that will tend to reduce the malt presence. I prefer 5.3 to 5.4.
Someone mentioned it near the beginning, I think they said 5.2 or 5.3.
My goal in making this thread was to distill that conversation into something more like cookbook instructions, to summarize concrete step someone could take to improve their German-style lagers.
+1. I think this hits the nail on the head. Otherwise the answers are pretty obvious as far as I can tell. To state what I think is fairly obvious, here it all is:
Use all fresh German ingredients
big yeast starter
constant fermentation temperature less than 50 F
racking is optional.
Near the end of fermentation, it wouldn’t be a bad idea to do a diacetyl rest at 60-65 F, but only if there’s diacetyl, otherwise skip it.
When fermentation is done, wait for the beer to clear, then keg or bottle right away, and then wait a good long 6 to 9 months in order to instill “that elusive German flavor”. It will be good before then, but could be even better with age at least according to the Americans’ palates.
I think that’s pretty much all there is to it.
The only other question I have really is whether decoction makes a difference. Many people say no it doesn’t. However, and this is only one data point: the best German lager that I ever made was triple decocted. Coincidence? I’m honestly not sure yet, and I am not jumping to any quick conclusions based on just my one data point. Many more experiments are needed before I make up my mind.
To add one data-point, in the experiment I did comparing melanoidin malt to triple-decoction, 6 of the 8 evaluators preferred the melanoidin malt beer. My wife did a blind tasting, and she strongly preferred the decocted beer. I did two blind tastings, and couldn’t really tell a difference, and slightly preferred a different one each time.
There might be a difference in how people perceive flavor. There might also be a psychological component too. When I was a decoction ‘true believer,’ decoction was the best thing ever and gave my beer an imitable richness and depth of flavor. Now that I’m skeptical of the effects of decoction, I can’t tell the difference.
Maybe if I applied German labels to my beer, it would taste more authentic. . .
One other potential issue mentioned was oxidation due to shipment.
That’s true. But I can never taste the wet cardboard in beers like Spaten. The last helles I brewed had just a tad of that flavor I’m looking for and I lagered that on the yeast cake for 2 weeks before kegging for another 2 weeks at 40F. Thinking I need more late hops, bigger starters/more yeast, and lager longer on yeast cake. Just sucks to take up the fermentation chamber space for one carboy. Need to brew two lagers a couple days apart and lager both, so it seems more worthwhile.
If you get “honey” notes in a German light lager,that is oxidation.
Edit - when the bitterness gets rough, that is oxidation, too.
I would think homebrewers would have no problem getting their beer to oxidize.
I am going to be pragmatic tomorrow and do a single infusion on a Vienna. Will see how that turns out.
The best Vienna I ever did was a single infusion over night. Scored a 43-45 in 2 comps. I have brewed it a couple other times since and I haven’t been able to replicate it since. The only thing I haven’t repeated is the overnight mash…Need to to that again me thinks?
I am fresh out of pragma, so I am going to decoct a MaiBock.
Something I just want to try and see how it turns out. Will do plenty of decoctions soon!
That has been my conclusion as well. The only German lager that I have ever done late hops in was the pilsner and schwarzbier. Even my bohemian pilsner gets hopped at FWH, 80, and 30. I haven’t noticed too much of a difference in decocted beers and those that are temperature controlled through a Hochkurz schedule of 142/158/168 (apart from my level of exhaustion on brew day). For most styles though, single infusion works well. I reserve the Hochkurz for the bopils. All ingredients are important, naturally. Continental malt, hops, and yeast with low carbonate water (I’m lucky in that regard).
Pitch cold, and let it slow rise a few degrees to your fermentation temperature (48–50 F; 45 for bopils).
But with all of these things nailed down, these beers are always better if given time to age. The hop bitterness drops a little and every gets that nice blend of flavors that. For lack of a better description, early on, one flavor or another tends to be more pronounced; after a time, everything is more subtle and in balance. I have found that at around a month in the keg is where they really get good.
Not being able to get fresh German beer here is what drove my brewing habit early on. I have sought to perfect these styles for years. It is a long road, but as my beers have improved, it has been worth the effort.
The bopils I have on tap right now is probably the best I have brewed yet. I will miss it until I can get another one on.
I have an unsubstantiated theory that lactic acid, not just low pH, is a contributor to the flavor of light German lagers. But I’d have to do that whole side by side thingie to actually find out. 
It sounds plausible. Maybe I’ll try acidifying my mash with Sauermalz next time, instead of phosphoric acid.
Couple things from reading this summary:
#1. This (and the previous thread of same title) is probably the most valuable and informative thread I’ve seen on this board. Thanks for everyone’s input!
#2. IME I can nail any amber or darker German lager (at least in my own blind tests). Maibock, Dunkel, Schwarz… I seem to have no trouble getting a beer I’m really really happy with. It’s the Pilsners (both German and Bohemian) that are hard to hit. Obviously this has a lot to do with my water: it’s moderately hard, and I use it 100% for Schwarz, and dilute it 50/50 with distilled water to brew Maibocks and Dunkels. But I use 100% distilled and add in minerals to brew Pilsners.
#3. +1 to the idea that extended lagering is very key… the closest matches I’ve had to Jever Pils and Pilsner Urquell (the two styles I’ve been trying to copy; brewed probably five 10-gal batches of each over the last 2 years) tasted the best at 8+ weeks in the keg. But both of these were not in primary for more than 18-20 days… I’ve never tried the lagering on yeast cake thing and not sure I want to try
#4. Decoction: Probably psychological but I like to do at least a mash-out decoction on all the German styles… makes me feel more authentic, and its fun… I do Hochkurz on Bo Pils and am going to try a triple on my next Bo Pils just for the hell of it… and of course the beer tastes better; I put an extra 2+ hours of work into it!
#5. Happy New Year to all…
-red
I have enjoyed these two threads so far. Here is what I took from the thread(s): to be German, do as the Germans would do.
There are tomes written on the German methods of brewing. Kai has even translated some of the original German texts for us. I think the ‘hows’ are fairly straight forward. That said, many palettes are dialed into imported German beer flavors. If that is what you like, what you define as German, then adapt the above to reflect what you like. Honestly, if the greater purpose of this thread is to gather information for entering beers in competition, remember, it is a crap-shoot as to whether you get BJCP judges with palettes dialed in on having spent time in Germany, having visited germany once, only trying German styles imported into the USA and only really having read books and guidelines on the lager styles. Brew what you like.
I’ve had a hard time getting the really crisp lager. My lagers taste fine, but don’t have that ‘snap.’ I’m thinking it’s maybe from using water that’s too soft.
I asked a German brewer about it, and he recommended using water with hardness of dH 40, or about 700ppm as CaCO3. That sounds really, really hard to me. That’s like, what, 300ppm Ca? I don’t remember the formula to convert that.
He must have been talking about Dortmunder water. I wonder if using something like Martin’s “yellow bitter” or “pale ale” profile might help.