I was looking for some feedback on using a base malt only and mashing at say 158f while using cal ale yeast. All the calculators say it should finish at 1.020-22. In my experience mashing at 156f, the lowest i can get the fg is 1.018. All of this is because i look at a recipe from a commercial brewery that is 90% base and 10% caramel and mashes at 158f, with cal ale yeast and getting to 1.016 fg. which i can’t get to. Any thoughts?
First, forget what any calculators say. They’re only guessing and they my be right and they may not. They’re pretty much just looking at yeast attenuation ratings, which are not necessarily a good way to predict attenuation.
Have you calibrated your thermometers?
+1 to calibrating your instruments. I can often get a 1.060ish beer mashed at 155-158 to finish in the 1.012ish range.
well i’m not going on the calculators only, from experience 156 puts me at 1.018. The calculators are almost always dead on for me and I am using several very accurate thermometers.
what’s your procedure? Mash out?
Denny, with your contacts at SN do they do a mashout of any type? May just be a difference in process.
IIRC, I think they do. But I doubt that explains things. I can ask them, but it will be a while since we’re into Thanksgiving now.
ETA: OK, went back and checked info and there is nothing to indicate they do anything other than a single infusion for this beer. We I was there brewing an alt for Beer Camp, we did a step mash (at their brewer’s insistence) but I don’t recall if there was a mashout. Maybe Jeff will have some info from when he was there.
I have checked them all to 2 lab thermometers. Matching up with beersmith also makes me feel that thier pretty close. Also before I did mashouts my fg would come in lower than the calculators.
Are you fly sparging?
This would mean that your mash rested longer at sacc rest temps, which would have promoted more attenuative wort, I think.
yes, with a mashout prior to.
that’s correct, which is why I had to go to a mashout.
I’m confused, if you want greater attenuation and you have noticed greater attenuation when you skip the mashout step then try skipping the mashout step. Perhaps you are not getting full beta conversion and denaturing the beta amylase with your mashout step before it has done all it can do with that mash.
Ok, so, what would be the major difference between using a lower mash temp vs not mashing out and getting a more fermentable wort?
because I’m trying to follow a commercial recipe, which has a mash temp of 158f (less beta more alpa). But I can’t seem to make those numbers work. Would I be missing something in the body/mouthfeel by just using a lower mash temp or mashing high with no mashout.
don’t know, you would have to do a side by side.
Here’s what I THINK might be the difference:
Enzymatic reactions tend to occur faster at higher temps. Higher temps also favor Alpha over Beta amylase viability, however as far as I know, Beta amylase still works faster at higher temps, it’s just no longer in the ‘sweet spot’ for it up around 158. So I suspect that the beta amylase will still do it’s work more completely (more fermentable wort) in a given amount of time at the slightly higher mash temp.
Beta amylase works on sugars that Alpha amylase has already taken a turn with so while you may have 100% conversion how much of that is highly fermentable Beta products and how much is less fermentable Alpha products will vary given how long the Beta amylase has to work on the already 100% converted (as far as the alpha amylase is concerned anyway) wort.
Now, a proper mashout will fairly quickly stop all or most enzymatic action dead so no new conversion from Alpha products to Beta products will occur.
It seems possible to me that if you skip the mashout and fly sparge for say 45 minutes to an hour your are getting significantly more Beta products.
That’s my guess anyway.
And if you are trying to clone SN Celebration and they don’t do a mashout step then I would not do a mashout step.
When I last made a Celebration Ale - type beer I mashed @ 155F (never realizing that SN mashed @ 158F). What I did then was to add a bit more CaCl2 than I normally would for a West Coast hoppy beer, realizing that Celebration has a pretty full,firm malt base. I wasn’t trying to clone it but in terms of body and balance, it was pretty comparable.
this is another aspect to consider, there is more to a full malty mouthfeel/flavor than just residual long chain sugars. How does the water play with the hops? what level of crystal is being used? What’s the carbonation level like?
I was pretty vague in terms of amounts - I used 160ppm CaSO4 and 80ppm CaCl2. I thought it worked pretty well.
i remember them saying they usually mash at 158F which surprised us. But with their base malt and system it works. Mash out? Can’t remember. I do remember the first lauter stuck, and a half bag of rice hulls were used in the second lauter.