Still struggling

[redrocker652002]

Seems that each of the beers I have made have the same finish to them.  I am having trouble describing it, but is is almost a oak type flavor.  In one case, The Ranger IPA clone, it mirrored the original so I was ok with it.  My Blind Pig clone smells and tastes very little like the original.  I am getting a bit frustrated and thinking maybe it’s me.  I enjoy the process and am having fun making the beers, but this one leaves me a bit disappointed.  When did you all say to yourselves, OK, I got this thing nailed now and the beers you made were consistently on point with what you were looking for?  I am not giving up, I enjoy it, but just kinda looking for guidance.

My next attempt is going to be a bit scaled down with one hop only.  Probably Citra as I like the more fruity IPA’s I have tried.  After that, I might try and American ale, but all the AHA recipe’s I have looked at were a bit over my head.  Thanks to all who have given me input, I am not giving up yet.  I know I will find a few recipes that I like and some that might not be so good.  LOL.  RR

[alestateyall (tommymorris)]

@redrocker652002

When did you all say to yourselves, OK, I got this thing nailed now and the beers you made were consistently on point with what you were looking for?

I started brewing in the mid-90’s. I took 8-10 years off when my kids were small. I have been back to the hobby since 2010. Whenever I think I have it figured out, I get a bad batch. My problems are often recipe these days, but there are lots of ways to screw up. The more you brew the better your tastes become for discriminating off flavors. So, what would have been a perfect beer 10 years ago has an annoying flaw now.

That said, I love my beer and I love brewing it.

I am not sure what to say about the oak flavor. In general, I think the two best things you can do to improve your beer are temperature control during fermentation (ferment at the temp your yeast wants) and pitching enough yeast. Make a starter or pitch two packs if you need to get this right. Too much is better than too little.

[MDL]

Are you brewing all grain or extract?

What yeast are you using?

[system]

Making a starter to ensure healthy and active yeast, using fermentation temperature control, and avoiding cold side oxidation post ferment were the three most important changes I made back in the day.  The latter is especially important for hoppy beers, and moving to kegging from bottle conditioning can actually make things worse since you aren’t scavenging oxygen at bottling.  If you keg and are doing a secondary (or an extended fermentation primary fermentation of 2+ weeks), consider kegging earlier.  Having an active yeast pitch will also help the beer finish faster so you won’t need to hold it at fermentation temperature for a long time.

[jeffy]

When I think of “oak” flavor I think or tannins or astringency.  Sometimes this flavor comes from residual yeast still in suspension in your beer and it gets much better as the yeast drops out.  Does your beer improve as it gets closer to the bottom of the keg? (I’m pretty sure you are kegging)

[neuse]

@narvin

Making a starter to ensure healthy and active yeast, using fermentation temperature control, and avoiding cold side oxidation post ferment were the three most important changes I made back in the day.  The latter is especially important for hoppy beers, and moving to kegging from bottle conditioning can actually make things worse since you aren’t scavenging oxygen at bottling.  If you keg and are doing a secondary (or an extended fermentation primary fermentation of 2+ weeks), consider kegging earlier.  Having an active yeast pitch will also help the beer finish faster so you won’t need to hold it at fermentation temperature for a long time.

I bottle condition, so I don’t keep up with kegging techniques. But I always wondered why adding priming sugar when kegging isn’t more common. It seems like it would help prevent oxidation.

[rcroel (RC)]

@redrocker652002

When did you all say to yourselves, OK, I got this thing nailed now and the beers you made were consistently on point with what you were looking for?

Brewing is a skill that needs to be practiced to get good at it, and you need to experiment to discover what works for your particular homebrewery. If you were learning how to ski, you would not become an Olympic ski racer after only a few days on the bunny hill. It takes a lot of batches to figure stuff out. Do cut yourself some slack. YMMV but it might take you perhaps 20 or 30 batches until you can call your beers good. Have fun along the way and try not to get frustrated.

But also, keep your expectations in check. Russian River Brewing is a state-of-the-art commercial brewery with the latest and greatest equipment and technology for brewing. They employ top-notch, experienced brewers, and they have access to the highest quality ingredients. You, on the other hand, are making beer in a dirty garage using primitive equipment and ingredients of unknown freshness. It is unrealistic to expect your clone to taste much like the real thing, at least for now.

Hands down, the biggest leaps and bounds in quality for me happened when I started making starters and oxygenating the wort at pitching. At the time I was only using liquid yeast. Now I use mostly dry yeast and so starters are irrelevant, but I oxygenate when I re-pitch the harvests. Another huge leap for me occurred when I underwent professional sensory training. I can’t underscore how important this was for me. You can buy pills and sensory-train yourself at home, and I highly recommend this, but perhaps wait until you have your process a bit more dialed in.

Speaking of dry yeast, that finish you describe might be from that. I too get a subtle and strange flavor whenever I use dry yeast for the initial pitch. To me, it comes across as soapy. I suspect it’s from the fatty acids being released from cells that die upon pitching. Some English strains produce esters that come across as oak, could it be that? Or, could it be that you are tasting wet cardboard rather than oak? That would be oxidation.

And echoing earlier comments, temp control is critical. A common mistake among new brewers is that they will, for instance, keep their fermenting ale in a closet that’s at 68F, the “proper temp” for the yeast. But if the ambient temp is 68, this means the temp of the fermenting beer is actually in the mid-70s, because fermentation produces a lot of heat. This is too hot, and you will get off flavors. Unless you have a cooling coil directly in the beer, you need to account for a 5-10 degree delta between ambient temp and beer temp during active fermentation.

Hang in there and keep at it, your beers will get better, I promise.

[ynotbrusum]

+1 to the other comments, plus to get even closer you will need to mimic the adjusted brewing water of the brewery.  Instead of “cloning”, try an homage to the commercial brew.  Denny said that way back when and it got me to move away from attempts at strict duplication….which helped my mindset greatly.

[majorvices]

Read a good homebrew book like “How to Brew” by John Palmer or even “The Complete Joy of Homebrewing” by Charlie Papzian. There’s a lot going on in brewing, way more than the instructions on a kit. Asking questions on a forum is great, but if you are missing the basics we all may be overlooking what you are doing wrong. Brewing isn’t super difficult but it requires more education than making a box of mac and cheese.

Fermentation is critical. Be sure to pitch enough yeast. If using liquid yeast be sure to aerate you wort. Be absolutely sure you have control  over fermentation temp. as another mentioned: if you ferment at room temp it there is a chance that your fermentation temp is too high.

Be super careful not to oxidize your beer when fermentation is finished. You must keep oxidation at bay. The use of secondary or bottling buckets can cause problems. Try to purge everything with co2. If you are bottle conditioning the best way to do this to avoid oxidation is too skip the bottle bucket and bottle everything directly off the fermenter and prime the bottles individually. A “siphon less valve” on the fermenter makes this easy, but you can do it with a  siphon if you are careful.

Make sure you are removing the chlorine from your water before you use this with a  filter or with campden tablets or use bottled water. Don’t use any type of chlorine as a sanitizer.

[redrocker652002]

@MDL

Are you brewing all grain or extract?

What yeast are you using?

Extract as of now.  I have used safale 05 so far.  I am going to move into the All Grain arena soon I think with either BIAB or conventional.  I am hoping that will help me out.

[alestateyall (tommymorris)]

@redrocker652002

@MDL

Are you brewing all grain or extract?

What yeast are you using?

Extract as of now.  I have used safale 05 so far.  I am going to move into the All Grain arena soon I think with either BIAB or conventional.  I am hoping that will help me out.

Try Bry-97 instead of US-05. It’s similar but better.

[redrocker652002]

@jeffy

When I think of “oak” flavor I think or tannins or astringency.  Sometimes this flavor comes from residual yeast still in suspension in your beer and it gets much better as the yeast drops out.  Does your beer improve as it gets closer to the bottom of the keg? (I’m pretty sure you are kegging)

Yes, I am kegging and I have not really noticed any change, but I will pay attention this time.  Thank you for your reply.

[redrocker652002]

@redrocker652002

When did you all say to yourselves, OK, I got this thing nailed now and the beers you made were consistently on point with what you were looking for?

Brewing is a skill that needs to be practiced to get good at it, and you need to experiment to discover what works for your particular homebrewery. If you were learning how to ski, you would not become an Olympic ski racer after only a few days on the bunny hill. It takes a lot of batches to figure stuff out. Do cut yourself some slack. YMMV but it might take you perhaps 20 or 30 batches until you can call your beers good. Have fun along the way and try not to get frustrated.

But also, keep your expectations in check. Russian River Brewing is a state-of-the-art commercial brewery with the latest and greatest equipment and technology for brewing. They employ top-notch, experienced brewers, and they have access to the highest quality ingredients. You, on the other hand, are making beer in a dirty garage using primitive equipment and ingredients of unknown freshness. It is unrealistic to expect your clone to taste much like the real thing, at least for now.

Hands down, the biggest leaps and bounds in quality for me happened when I started making starters and oxygenating the wort at pitching. At the time I was only using liquid yeast. Now I use mostly dry yeast and so starters are irrelevant, but I oxygenate when I re-pitch the harvests. Another huge leap for me occurred when I underwent professional sensory training. I can’t underscore how important this was for me. You can buy pills and sensory-train yourself at home, and I highly recommend this, but perhaps wait until you have your process a bit more dialed in.

Speaking of dry yeast, that finish you describe might be from that. I too get a subtle and strange flavor whenever I use dry yeast for the initial pitch. To me, it comes across as soapy. I suspect it’s from the fatty acids being released from cells that die upon pitching. Some English strains produce esters that come across as oak, could it be that? Or, could it be that you are tasting wet cardboard rather than oak? That would be oxidation.

And echoing earlier comments, temp control is critical. A common mistake among new brewers is that they will, for instance, keep their fermenting ale in a closet that’s at 68F, the “proper temp” for the yeast. But if the ambient temp is 68, this means the temp of the fermenting beer is actually in the mid-70s, because fermentation produces a lot of heat. This is too hot, and you will get off flavors. Unless you have a cooling coil directly in the beer, you need to account for a 5-10 degree delta between ambient temp and beer temp during active fermentation.

Hang in there and keep at it, your beers will get better, I promise.

Thank you for the write up.  I am going to plead the fifth on the cardboard taste.  To me it tastes kinda woody, but it could be that.  Also, the point about the closet is spot on.  I put my fermenter bucket, in the closet at the end of the hallway.  I did not even think about the internal temp of the beer while it is fermenting.  When I check the closet it sits between 65 to 70 degrees most days, and I thought that would be ok.  Maybe I will try putting in my kegerator and unplug it.  I am thinking of expanding the door to use it as a dual purpose, so this might be a good time to try it.  LOL.  As far as yeast starters, I was going to give that a try on my next batch and see how it goes.  I bought some DME and a large bottle to use, that is for sure on my list.

I am actually thinking of trying bottles the next time just to see if it is my kegging or me.  LOL.

Thanks for taking the time to write that up for me.  I appreciate it.  RR

[redrocker652002]

@redrocker652002

@MDL

Are you brewing all grain or extract?

What yeast are you using?

Extract as of now.  I have used safale 05 so far.  I am going to move into the All Grain arena soon I think with either BIAB or conventional.  I am hoping that will help me out.

Try Bry-97 instead of US-05. It’s similar but better.

I will.  I wanted to try something different, so that is good info.  Thanks.

[redrocker652002]

Thanks to all who have replied.  I appreciate all the info and you all have given me some stuff to think about.  I am trying to move into the all grain area, I have a feeling the Extract is part of my color problem and maybe I am going something wrong in the boil and burning it?  Who knows, but I appreciate all the info.  I will get it nailed down eventually, or spend a lot of time trying  LOL

Be safe all.  RR

[ScallyWag]

I have not been brewing much longer than you have, but here are a few things that are becoming clearer to me.

First, is aging & patience.  I’ve had several beers that were kind of bad or yucky at the beginning, but by letting them bottle age for a month longer, they became drinkable… after another month, became pretty good…  after another month, were downright tasty.  I’ve had others that started out as pretty good right off the bat (i.e., 2-3 weeks in bottle) but 2-3 months down the road were magnificent.  I feel like the sweet spot for the beers I make is about 4-5 months after brew-day, and so I need to find a way to be patient until then.  (I generally start trying them out 6-8 weeks after brew day, but I almost always find that the last few bottles are always the best, and I find myself wishing I had waited longer.)

So I’ve built a ‘pipeline’ of staggered product in my basement containing anywhere from 4-8 different batches, trying to build up enough reserve so that I’m not drinking them too early.

That said, it sounds like the beers you brew may be better consumed younger than the beers I brew, but it’s worth squirreling a few bottles away from each batch to see for yourself how they age.

Fastidious sanitation is perhaps the biggest factor (and probably goes without saying).  This one is really hard for me, as a guy who used to wash his hands once every few years, and is the human equivalent of Pig-Pen from Charlie Brown.  I am a slob, but homebrewing has forced me out of my comfort zone into being a clean freak (or sort of trying to be, at least) during the brew process.  As much as I hate it, the better I am at cleaning/sanitizing, the better my beer.  #StatingTheObvious

Third thing is grain quality - some malts really are better than others, and while some of them may cost 20 cents more per pound than the cheaper alternative, at my volume (usually 3 gallon to 4.5 gallon batches) it’s ridiculous for me to penny pinch, and I can taste the difference.

Thing 3b, speaking of grain:  I am so glad I finally went to crushing my own, instead of buying pre-crushed.  Not just control over the fineness of the milling, but the freshness.  (The latter is not issue if you’re buying grain bill batch-by-batch as you go.)  It’s another step, but I enjoy it.

Lastly, I don’t do temperature control when fermenting, so I pick a yeast that will perform optimally for the temperature ranges my basement will be at for the next 2-3 weeks.  I often do split batches where I try 2 or more different yeasts on the same wort (but in different FVs, obviously) and I often get better results from a second-choice yeast (better suited for those temps) than from the primary yeast I wanted, if that primary yeast was straying into the wrong temperature range.

I’m not much help re: the specific issue you mentioned (oaky) and maybe very little of my brewing circumstances translates to what you do.  Just remember, if a beer is mediocre, or you have to toss a batch, let it go.  The NEXT one you brew will probably be awesome!

[BrewBama (Dwain)]

@redrocker652002

@redrocker652002

@MDL

Are you brewing all grain or extract?

What yeast are you using?

Extract as of now.  I have used safale 05 so far.  I am going to move into the All Grain arena soon I think with either BIAB or conventional.  I am hoping that will help me out.

Try Bry-97 instead of US-05. It’s similar but better.

I will.  I wanted to try something different, so that is good info.  Thanks.

You might also give Lutra a try. It’s a Norwegian Kveik strain you can get in dry form that ferments at the higher temps you are seeing …and is reportedly very clean and lager-like (I have not tried it).

[Richard.Swent_gmail.com (Richard)]

@ScallyWag

I have not been brewing much longer than you have, but here are a few things that are becoming clearer to me.

First, is aging & patience.  I’ve had several beers that were kind of bad or yucky at the beginning, but by letting them bottle age for a month longer, they became drinkable… after another month, became pretty good…  after another month, were downright tasty.  I’ve had others that started out as pretty good right off the bat (i.e., 2-3 weeks in bottle) but 2-3 months down the road were magnificent.  I feel like the sweet spot for the beers I make is about 4-5 months after brew-day, and so I need to find a way to be patient until then.  (I generally start trying them out 6-8 weeks after brew day, but I almost always find that the last few bottles are always the best, and I find myself wishing I had waited longer.)

That is definitely style-dependent. While heavy stouts may benefit from months of aging, IPA is best consumed fresh. 90 days is what many consider the life of a very hoppy beer before it starts to lose aroma and flavor. For NEIPA it may be even less if you have significant oxygen exposure.

I doubt that your problems are due to the use of extract, unless your extract is very old (unlikely if you shop at MoreBeer). Moving to all grain makes things very complicated, which is why people used to start with extract brewing and only move to all grain once they had perfected their extract process. Sanitation, healthy yeast, temperature control and minimizing oxygen exposure are the most important and there is no difference between extract and all-grain for those.

[redrocker652002]

@ScallyWag

I have not been brewing much longer than you have, but here are a few things that are becoming clearer to me.

First, is aging & patience.  I’ve had several beers that were kind of bad or yucky at the beginning, but by letting them bottle age for a month longer, they became drinkable… after another month, became pretty good…  after another month, were downright tasty.  I’ve had others that started out as pretty good right off the bat (i.e., 2-3 weeks in bottle) but 2-3 months down the road were magnificent.  I feel like the sweet spot for the beers I make is about 4-5 months after brew-day, and so I need to find a way to be patient until then.  (I generally start trying them out 6-8 weeks after brew day, but I almost always find that the last few bottles are always the best, and I find myself wishing I had waited longer.)

So I’ve built a ‘pipeline’ of staggered product in my basement containing anywhere from 4-8 different batches, trying to build up enough reserve so that I’m not drinking them too early.

That said, it sounds like the beers you brew may be better consumed younger than the beers I brew, but it’s worth squirreling a few bottles away from each batch to see for yourself how they age.

Fastidious sanitation is perhaps the biggest factor (and probably goes without saying).  This one is really hard for me, as a guy who used to wash his hands once every few years, and is the human equivalent of Pig-Pen from Charlie Brown.  I am a slob, but homebrewing has forced me out of my comfort zone into being a clean freak (or sort of trying to be, at least) during the brew process.  As much as I hate it, the better I am at cleaning/sanitizing, the better my beer.  #StatingTheObvious

Third thing is grain quality - some malts really are better than others, and while some of them may cost 20 cents more per pound than the cheaper alternative, at my volume (usually 3 gallon to 4.5 gallon batches) it’s ridiculous for me to penny pinch, and I can taste the difference.

Thing 3b, speaking of grain:  I am so glad I finally went to crushing my own, instead of buying pre-crushed.  Not just control over the fineness of the milling, but the freshness.  (The latter is not issue if you’re buying grain bill batch-by-batch as you go.)  It’s another step, but I enjoy it.

Lastly, I don’t do temperature control when fermenting, so I pick a yeast that will perform optimally for the temperature ranges my basement will be at for the next 2-3 weeks.  I often do split batches where I try 2 or more different yeasts on the same wort (but in different FVs, obviously) and I often get better results from a second-choice yeast (better suited for those temps) than from the primary yeast I wanted, if that primary yeast was straying into the wrong temperature range.

I’m not much help re: the specific issue you mentioned (oaky) and maybe very little of my brewing circumstances translates to what you do.  Just remember, if a beer is mediocre, or you have to toss a batch, let it go.  The NEXT one you brew will probably be awesome!

Thank you for the write up, lots of useful info there.  Patience is not a virtue for me, and that could very well be my downfall.  The beer I am having issues with has only been in the keg about a week, so it is likely I should wait at least another couple of weeks.  I, like you, need to work on a way to keep kegs “in the bullpen” so to speak without having to keep them cold.  I don’t have the room at this point for another fridge or freezer, and my wife has already been more than patient with this as it is now.  So asking for another 100 bucks for a used chest freezer is going to be a problem  LOL.

I am going to put the current keg on the do not disturb list for another few weeks, and I am thinking of brewing a batch and bottling it to see what the difference is.  Maybe I am just not a keg kinda guy.  LOL.

Thanks again, your info really helps.  RR

[redrocker652002]

@richard

@ScallyWag

I have not been brewing much longer than you have, but here are a few things that are becoming clearer to me.

First, is aging & patience.  I’ve had several beers that were kind of bad or yucky at the beginning, but by letting them bottle age for a month longer, they became drinkable… after another month, became pretty good…  after another month, were downright tasty.  I’ve had others that started out as pretty good right off the bat (i.e., 2-3 weeks in bottle) but 2-3 months down the road were magnificent.  I feel like the sweet spot for the beers I make is about 4-5 months after brew-day, and so I need to find a way to be patient until then.  (I generally start trying them out 6-8 weeks after brew day, but I almost always find that the last few bottles are always the best, and I find myself wishing I had waited longer.)

That is definitely style-dependent. While heavy stouts may benefit from months of aging, IPA is best consumed fresh. 90 days is what many consider the life of a very hoppy beer before it starts to lose aroma and flavor. For NEIPA it may be even less if you have significant oxygen exposure.

I doubt that your problems are due to the use of extract, unless your extract is very old (unlikely if you shop at MoreBeer). Moving to all grain makes things very complicated, which is why people used to start with extract brewing and only move to all grain once they had perfected their extract process. Sanitation, healthy yeast, temperature control and minimizing oxygen exposure are the most important and there is no difference between extract and all-grain for those.

Thank you for the info.  I feel that my cleanliness is good, but I could be missing something.  Honestly, it might just be the style of what I am brewing.  My brother made a wheat beer, and did it using all my stuff, and it tasted really good.  So maybe I need to just play with the ingredients a little and see what I come up with.  I am thinking of bottling a batch just to see if it is my kegging that is the problem.  Maybe I am not meant to keg beer.  LOL.