I guess we’re straying into a separate topic (I didn’t mean to hijack the thread) , but in any case…
You make a good point, and I should clarify that I believe very broad guidelines (perhaps a better term would be “style descriptions”) are ok and yes, needed, to foster a common language. Something more along the lines of the AHA’s original and by far more sensible ‘styles’ list published 20+ years ago.
But as you also suggest, brewing is an art. As such, the only guidelines a brewer needs (outside of specific parameters for amateur competition) are a sense of history, his/her own artistic sense, and his/her own palate.
So to bring it back 'round closer to original topic… since research indicates that Guinness originally likely did not even use roasted unmalted barley until well into the 20th century, would the original brew lose points in a stout competition? Or, to use a term that many beer lovers have come to loathe, would it be “not to style”? (even typing the dreaded phrase makes me cringe) ;D
[quote]So to bring it back 'round closer to original topic… since research indicates that Guinness originally likely did not even use roasted unmalted barley until well into the 20th century, would the original brew lose points in a stout competition? Or, to use a term that many beer lovers have come to loathe, would it be “not to style”? (even typing the dreaded phrase makes me cringe)
[/quote]
Yes, it would loose points , because we live in the present day without a deeper regard to history, that is not to say or discredit those who labored to create style guidelines, or update them , but becuase like so many things in life and history, things change, styles change, tastes change, and people change . Not to style ( I have dreaded that statement as much as you , even more as a judge ), simply reflects the current , dynamic changes we as brewers and judges need use as a measure. Nothing worse than tasting a great beer , and detracting points for the style drift . Yes we are off topic from the OP , but it’s constructive and I find off topic passion stronger than most " on topic " answers . I like your thoughts on this subject 8)
OK…
roasted and brown malts, chocholates and caramels malts= Porter?
roasted and brown malts, chocholates and caramels malts+roasted barley = porter or stout?
roasted and brown malts, chocholates and caramels malts +roasted barley and black patents=stout?
what if I used;
M/O, roasted malts, chocolate, caramel malts and 5% oatmeal= An oatmeal stout? or Oatmeal porter?
Check out Ron Pattinson’s blog http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/
There is a ton of information about porter and stout from a historical perspective. He goes into old brewing logs and deciphers the information. After reading a lot of the posts its pretty clear that our understanding of beer styles and history is pretty limited. I believe he states that stout and porter are the same beer and that, historically, stouts were stronger than proters. Read through the recipes and you will find that a lot of our ideas about what ingredients should make up a certain style of beer are way off. Let’s just say that the english brewers used a lot of sugar and coloring.