Can you name a few. I will seek those out on my next trip to Germany. Research you know!
Jeff, Kai has a number of German beer reviews on Braukaiser and there are a few Helles listed there.
Jim
Try to find these:
- Badische Staatsbrauerei Rothaus: Tannenzaepfle - very nice Pils with a dry finish and good hop character
- Allgauer Brauhaus: Teutsch Pils - This was amazing and how a Pils should taste. Very nice hop character (http://braukaiser.com/blog/beers/2011/01/27/allgauer-brauhaus-teutsch-pils/)
These were the only two that stood out to me. A Helles that tastes as bitter as a Pils is the one brewed by Ayinger.
Kai
This is sold at a local bottle shop and is amazingly good.
I didn’t even think that this would be available in the US. But then again, a lot of the smaller German beer brands find more appreciation in the US than in Germany.
Kai
Kai - thanks. I am reading on wiki often, not the Blog. Need to go there more often.
The brewing blog is where I write more often these days. Stuff written there doesn’t have to be as complete and comprehensive as on the Wiki. The beer blog is for beers I had during a 2008 trip to Germany. I had many beers on my last trip too, but not many of them stood out. I may want to add the ones that did stand out to me.
Kai
Our local bottle shop (The Bier Stein for those in the area) has an amazing array of imported beers that I haven’t seen elsewhere. And they’re generally in pristine condition. IIRC, they have at least 3 varieties of the Allgauer.
I hope I am not too late for the discussion to throw my two cents in here:
I think process, ingredients, water and fermentation play an equal role. It is a combination of variables and no one thing. While we have documentation of historical and current water profiles, German’s cut their water with RO/DI too. I know the Hofbrauhaus in Newport, KY uses a water softener on all of their brewing water. I have found, myself, that when I cut my tap water 50% or 75% with RO/DI I get a different beer. Generally, I prefer the lower hardness water as the malts flavors are richer and bitterness less harsh.
There is much discussion about decoction mashing. I have found it results in a dryer finish (due to the higher fermentability of the wort), maltier profile and more authentic taste. I have been amazed at how much malt flavor and complexity I can get out of a Pils only recipe using a decoction mash. However, I believe the effects of the decoction mash are minimized if you use kilned specialty malts. The melanoidins are already present in the higher kilned malts, so you don’t notice the effect of the decoction like you do with Pils only beers.
I also believe the source of the malt makes a big difference. I have made many pils only beers using different cultivars and maltsters, and they all taste different. They all have that signature Pils sweetness, but side by side you can definitely tell they are not the same malt. Some continental pils have too much sweetness and throw off the malt profile, for me; the resulting beers are a little less authentically German. They come out more like French Pilsners, with almost a grape-like pils sweetness.
Yeast makes beer, right, so no doubt yeast makes a big difference. I would even claim that using a yeast outside of its sweet spot even results in a profile that just makes you teeter on the edge and say its just a little off from authentically German. I think in our haste, too warm of a diacetyl rest, too soon in the process, can slightly affect the melding (oxidation, conversion and reabsorption) of flavors. I feel I get a slightly maltier beer when I leave it at 50F for 4-8 weeks, rather than fermenting 2-3 weeks and doing a D-rest warm. I also lose that slight, fleeting, initial sulfur character that I taste in a lot of the great German lagers when I do the warm D-rest. This may just be due to physics and vapor pressures and such when performing a warm D-rest rather than fermenting cold continuously. In terms of fermenting, I think of it like low and slow in barbecuing. Yeah, you can cut an hour off your day by searing, then going low and slow, but it just isn’t quite the same as slowly and continuously letting the juices leak out of your grillables and sear over a long period at low temperatures. The hard way is usually the best way, for me.
Then again, what is authentically German anyways. Traditional? Modern? Modern lagers are changing due to economics. If chasing the flavors of a modern, mass-produces German lager is authentic, then I don’t want to be authentic anyways.
If decoction makes a more fermentable beer, it doesn’t do so consistently. I haven’t found that to be the case. Decoction cuts down on the hot break in the kettle, which would otherwise bind with hop acids and decrease utilization. So less hot break = more bitter beer. I also suspect decoction mashing extracts more tannins which contribute to that perception of dryness. I haven’t found decoction to make my beers tastes more “authentic,” though I do have a slight preference for decoction over melanoidin malt, but I’ve made beers I enjoy without either, just using 100% base malt and single infusion.
I’ve noticed that grape-like pils sweetness on some beers too, but I wasn’t sure what was causing that.
One of the BJCP National level judges in our club pointed out that Bocks often have a grape taste from the Munich I malt. So it is not limited to just Pils malt.
What is interesting about the decoction process is that it defies conventional logic and does not extract excessive tannins. The pH equilibrium shifts towards more acidic as you get closer to boiling, so tannins really are not extracted. The increase in fermentability comes from the step mash profile of a triple decoction. More time spent at the protein, limit dextrinase, beta amylase and alpha amylase rests increase fermentability and reduce body and mouthfeel. This is why decoctions are dryer than non-decoctions, not because of hopping rates and tannins. This is also why mash efficiency is improved with decoctions. Now if you single infuse at an alpha rest, then do a single decoction to raise to mash-out, then no, you would not get increased fermentability.
Well, I disagree. I recently did a back-to-back beer, one triple decocted, and one with 5% melanoidin malt, and their OG and FG were identical. I didn’t claim decoction extracts “excessive” tannins, just more tannins than would otherwise be extracted during an infusion mash. “Excessive” is subjective, but in absolute terms, a decoction mash will extract a great amount of tannin for a given weight of grain.
I disagree, more tannins are not extracted. Monitor the pH during the decoction and you’ll see for yourself. A decrease in pH decreases tannin extraction. Higher temps off-gas CO and thus bicarbonate. Additionally, the precipitation of calcium phosphate at higher temps releases hydrogen ions. The pH has no choice but to go down.
You may have a crush or lautering system that gets you 80+% efficiency anyways, so you may not see a change in mash efficiency. Most will see an increase though. However, you will have no choice but to see a difference in fermentability. You cannot perform a step mash profile without converting more sugars into maltose and less into dextrins.
My hydrometer disagrees as well. But, I’ll leave it at that.
musseldoc, thanks for sharing your thoughts.
I have never tried anything else but German pils malt for my Pilsners. There are enough other variables that I want to look at first.
I think claims about more tannins being released or not are difficult to support given that we don’t measure them and the amount we are talking about here is not showing up as a noticeable taste difference. During a decoction mash the pH does go down. Whether or not this ultimately results in less tannin extraction despite the temperature being higher is debatable.
Decoction’s effect on fermentability can also go both ways given that you can’t simply compare 2 mashed done with the same rest temps.
Kai
Hmm, I’m surprised to hear you say that. I was basing my position on your interview on BBR. It is a couple years old, so I’m interested in what changed your mind.
Starting around 27min: “Decoction mashing does extract more husk compounds, so the decocted beer tends to be slightly more robust tasting, and that works well for darker beers. There should not be excessive tannin extraction, but there is some tannin extraction. Decoction is not so much suited for a more delicate beer, like a German pilsner. German brewers may go out of their way to separate their husks from their grits and flour, just to minimize tannin extraction.” He goes on to say that separating the husks is not really that common, though some German brewers do it, as well as Trumer, who calls it “endosperm mashing.”
You got me there 
What I said in that interview comes from fairly reputable literature sources. I’m just backing down from this being always true given that it is something we can’t easily measure or taste. I still think its more likely that decoction mashing increased tanning extraction even if the pH drops a little.
Kai
I’m not trying to give you a hard time. I’ve said a lot of things over the years I now think was completely wrong. I was just curious if your view had changed.
Back to FWH.
I have to say that earlier hops additions gives me harsher and lingering bitterness.
Not sure why FWH would not do the same.
This is my experience.
Kind of learned it hard way with 350 gallons of beer.