Thirsty,
with what type of hops did you make this experience?
Elevated pre-boil wort pH can help create that problem. Hopefully the mashing and sparging water alkalinity are properly reduced.
Can you go into this a bit more? I mean, can you name some names? I’m interested to hear the results.
Sure. I have tried with Briess, Munton Weyerman and one from my homebrew shop labeled Belgian Pils (don’t know the brand). Munton calls their pils lager malt, but it is the traditional luv range of pils malt. The Weyerman had the richest malt character with some sweetness. The Belgian was fairly clean with a distinctive pils sweetness. The Muntons had the intense pils sweetness that was grape-like. Briess was somewhat sweet, but almost just neutral malt in character.
In George Fix’s book, principles of brewing science, he sites the blind taste tests where FWH was show to have a cleaner, less harsh bitter taste, despite having higher measured IBU’s. I think Gordon goes into this in his book too, and he is a big believer in FWH. I only tried it once with an APA. I took a medal at a fairly large competition (300+ entries), and my scoresheets described the beer as malty and dry with a bright hop flavor and no harsh bitterness. I am fairly convinced that FWH does produce different flavors than 60 minute additions. I know Jamil is not sold on it tho.
I know that regardless of traditional or FWH,when I use a low alpha hop to get a lot of IBU’s, then I get a lot of vegetal material (polyphenols) dissolved in the beer and it comes out grassy and astringent. To me, that makes the bitterness harsh.
Some brewers swear by it, others don’t like it. I think its worth a few batches for brewers to see themselves. Especially when you are looking for something new to try. The science behind why the hop flavor/aroma stays in the beer may not be as simple as for late hop additions but who cares if it works.
You may want to give hop extract (NB sells it as the hop shot, but you can also buy 150g cans for $15 through bulk buys) a try for basic bittering additions. There is no vegetal matter that can lead to the flavors you described above.
The last Pilsners I made used 30g Saazer as FWH and 2 g hop extract (54% AA) for bittering. This is for 25 l preboil. I feel that the utilization for hop extract is a bit less than for hop pellets and you have to add a bit more.
Kai
And for that reason I’d love to see varietal Hop Shots, especially for some of the lower AA hops. My freezer would look like a heroin junkie’s stash if they made Czech Saaz and EKG Hop Shots.
So…how much yeast should you pitch for a 5 gal batch? I’ve been doing a one smack pack yeast starter a day or two before my brew day. Is this short for a G-Lager? Should I start sooner, then add more DME @ 1.04 one more time or even two times? I just started doing yeast starters.
I pitch about 90 - 100g freshly propagated yeast sediment into a 12 Plato 5 gal batch. That is about 400 Billion cells and I need about 2.5 l wort at 10 Plato to grow that much on a stirplate.
Kai
Good information! I was leaning towards trying Weyermann’s Floor Malted Bohemian Pilsner malt for an upcoming Helles or German Pils, so I may do just that.
You mean like this:
I’m not sure of there is a large selection of varietal hop extract available. It’s mostly used for substituting bittering hops and brewers still add pellets for aroma/flavor. Some vegative matter is beneficial for good hop break.
Kai
I’ve got an all-Hop Shot APA in the fermenter as we speak, so I’ll reserve judgement until I taste it. But, of all the batches I brewed that day, the Hop Shot one smelled the best. I did get a bunch of green scum on top of the boil, so I think at least a little of the vegetative “stuff” comes through in the extract. The Hop Shot I used looks like it was quite a bit darker than what you have.
You might be interested in the results of a FWH experiment I did years back. I split a batch of wort and one half got an oz. of Cascade as FWH and the other got an oz. of Cascade as a 60 min. addition. The beers were analyzed for IBU and there was a blind triangle tasting by experienced homebrewers, BJCP judges, and commercial brewers. The results are at http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2008/DennyConn.pdf starting on pg. 29.
I would also recommend you look into Durst and Best malts. I’ve tried maybe 6-7 different pils malts, including most of the ones listed above. Durst was my go to for years, then I discovered Best. I’ve used it exclusively for pils malt and continental Munich ever since.
Hmmm… more food for thought. I knew I liked this place! 
Problem is, I’m living in small town southern Illinois right now, and have to mail order just about everything. Should I assume you get Best Malz Pils locally? I’m not finding a good source online. :-\
I like Weyermann malts, but can’t get them through our club bulk buys. I’ve never done a direct side by side to compare Weyermann and Best pils, though.
Weyermann Munich I and II don’t seem to have good substitutions made by other maltsters.
Kai
Yeah, our club does a group buy through a local brewery.
Is there a malt that anyone has used that is undermodified for use in decoction mashing?
I tried to find some, but the least-modified I found had a Kolbach of around 37, which is “overmodified” for traditional lager brewing, according to Noonan.
Sorry for late response.
I use Magnum and Saaz.
It is normally 27 IBUs of Magnum and 4 IBUs of Saaz at 60 min.
The sharp and lingering bitterness was from
9.3 IBUs Saaz at 75 min and
21 IBUs Magnum at 60 min.
I was trying to get to more “traditional” hops.
Reducing Magnum and increasing Saaz.