I must have missed something, Jeff! I was sure that was in there. Now I’ve got to figure out where I read it. But I still personally agree with your hypothesis.
I really need to buy that book.
I use a secondary (glass carboy) for aging barleywine and RIS. I could use a keg but don’t like to tie up my kegs for that amount of time. I purge the carboy with CO2 and use an autosiphon for the transfer. I top off the carboy to within 2" of the top and cap it with an airlock.
brewmasternpb,
I’ve had the same thoughts and I’m definitely skeptical of brewers who seem too lazy to brew properly. The key here (IMO so take this with a grain of salt) is temperature rather than the vessel. Having observed brewers who transfer from the primary directly to the serving fridge (keg) I found their beers to lack the melding or aging qualities (at least initially) of beer that had sat in a secondary. Problem solved; now I skip the secondary carboy and transfer to keg but the keg sits at cellar temps for a minimum of two weeks (longer for bigger beers) before seeing the colder temperature of my serving fridge. In your case (bottling rather than kegging) that doesn’t really help. Ever thought of buying cheap ball lock kegs and counter pressure filling bottles from a primed keg?
“too lazy to brew properly” interesting statement. What makes transferring to secondary “proper?”
You’ll note that I said that I don’t use a secondary carboy either. There are some brewers (none in this discussion) that care more about simplifying brewing than they do about the quality of the end product. If the shoe doesn’t fit then don’t worry about it.
It is one of the few that I plan to read a second time. Very good stuff. I recommend it.
I saw The Final Word and thought of the pre-prohibition cocktail…
I don’t secondary unless it’s a high ABV beer and I want to age it.
My motto is “The best beer possible with the least work possible while having the most fun possible”. But I’m curious about how you define “brew properly”? What is “proper brewing”? Who defines it? Why doesn’t that definition differ from person to person?
+1, I used to think continuous sparging was “proper” LOL.
Like I said, I’m not referring to anyone in this discussion. I was simply referring to the op “it’s a pain in the butt is not a valid reason for me.” I define “brew properly” by the quality of the end product. Initially I was skeptical of brewers who skipped the secondary, so I talked to a few locals and sampled their beer. Then I personally decided to skip the secondary with most of my brews BUT I have found benefits to aging in the keg (see my comments above). Denny, I’m a perfectionist and everything I do is done to the highest level possible. Rather than take offense at the first sentence in my post why not take it with a grain of salt knowing that I’m a perfectionist and skip to the meat of my post?
Jay, please understand I wasn’t taking offense and I apologize if it came off that way. And I totally agree that it’s the quality of the end product that defines “proper brewing”. That’s what I was getting at, and wanted to hear your definition. For me, I can’t always say that aging is the key to the best beer…but I’m certainly not saying that aging can’t improve some beers, either.
I think Denny’s motto is one to brew by…at least I intend to brew with that approach.
I too am also a perfectionist of sorts which can get in the way of pragmatism. I am always searching for better ways, methods and techniques to improve my beer regardless of the effort. I want to make the best beer possible at almost any price. However I believe that brewing should be fun and if I’m spinning my wheels, I am not having fun so I revert to a more practical means.
That being said, aging beer in a secondary carboy has delivered some pretty good results with my barleywines…
I am one to “not mess with success”.
No worries.
Thanks everybody! I will check out the Palmer Q&A. I understand what you meant by “too lazy to brew properly”, that was partially why I asked the question in the first place. I wanted to find out if there was an actual reason why people skipped the secondary, or if they just saw it as a trivial step, and if so, is it really trivial? You guys gave me good stuff to think about.
If I secondary ales, I still give them 10-14 days in the primary, and generally only transfer to free up my larger primary fermenters and make it easy to move the vessel around without stirring up sediment. I see an advantage to using a secondary to age a strong beer only… if I am going to keg after 2-3 weeks, i’ll skip it.
I secondary in the keg. I aged my RIS for a year in a keg, I lager in kegs as well. I use my glass carboys for things like sour beers that I intend to age for years instead of months. It works for me.
Alright, thanks for the tip Denny, that’s exactly what I was looking for! It’s nice to get everyone’s oppinions, and homebrew discussion is always worth-while, but now I have the facts!
In summary; high quality yeast, combined with our knowledge of pitch-rates have made a secondary fermenter unecessary (unless you are actually having a second fermentation).
And since we’ve conquered the problem of autolysis, we can focus on eliminating the problem of oxidation and contamination, by eliminating the secondary.
Funny thing, I believe every one of those points was covered in this thread, by different folks! Good job gang!
+1. Same here. I use the glass carboy for aging beers that benefit from some oxidation characteristics, such as Belgian sours, and especially Old ales. I’ve noticed that even with an airlock on the carboy the beer in the glass carboy still gets somewhat oxidized. I think it has to do with temperature change and the atmospheric pressure decreasing/ increasing pulling some air into the carboy.
I’ve also noticed that the sour beers I transfer to corny kegs don’t develop the fine sour flavors needed, compared to when I age them in glass carboys, or oak barrels…
I secondary for a few reasons. To harvest yeast and to free up primarys. If I had four temp controlled conicals I’d stop using a secondary. But then I’m not lazy, just cheap.