Freezer bags are ok for a month or 2, but those are not O2 barrier bags.
I agree that it likely is, but I’ve screwed up enough experiments that I like to make sure to limit the variables and focus on the hypothesis.
The main reason to keep hops in airtight packaging is to slow down oxidation of alpha acids. Calculators like http://brewerslog.appspot.com/HopAlphaCalc estimate those Willamette hops would have only 0.5% AA after 11 years, though that’s compensated to some extent by degradation of beta acids producing other bittering compounds.
It’s amazing those hops kept so much aroma after 11 years. Also great news for anyone worried about buying hops from previous years. Presumably what little O2 was inside the package was consumed and the remaining hop oils were preserved. It might be different if the packet had been opened and resealed.
I break my hop orders down into smaller packs to prevent resealing. I’ve settled on 4oz as the sweet spot. I’d like to do 2oz for some hops, but bag prices add up.
I do something similar - 2 oz bags for most bittering hops, 4 oz bags for most late hops. Like you say, ideally smaller quantities the better, but the bags get pricey.
Not trying to be nasty, but seriously?
There is no doubt that there would be differences. But would there be differences that matter? I vote no.
For my money, Marshall is doing good for the hobby. I had a couple bones get stuck in my wind pipe when I first started reading his blogs, but I credit him and others like Denny and Mark, in opening my mind back up.
When a homebrew experiment, which casts doubt on an edict from the brewing priesthood, gets poopood for some pedantic minutiae… I guess it just shows that Marshall is doing his job.
I wonder if its even possible to come to an agreement that this is about homebrew, and not what hypothetically might be fractionally different if subjected to a gas chronometer/mass spectrometer test? In my book, all that matters is final product as experienced in a fallible human mouth. I wonder how many homebrewers ensure that when they rebrew a beer that every element is EXACTLY the same as the last batch? Not me.
Jim, as I said I agree that the differences could be minor to none. They may very well have no effect. But none of us really know that. But in order for it be be a trusted experiment, you have to eliminate any variable other than the one you’re studying. As I said, I’ve screwed up enough to learn that. As to how homebrewers rebrew, I always make sure to duplicate as closely as possible. If I know I’m not going to be able to do that, I consider it a different beer.
Jim - Your last paragraph details exactly why the wort should be homogeneous for boil related experiments.
Same here Steve. I need to start breaking down the bittering varieties more as well. Thats a great added idea
I see what you guys are saying. I will agree that there were differences between wort 1 and wort 2. I wonder though, what if he split one wort and did two boils? What I’m saying is 1. he still doesnt escape scrutiny that the two different boils would still be microscopically different. 2. How a beer is made can not be controlled enough to make up for the infallibility of the person who will be drinking it.
I guess I never really thought that these experiments were meant to be considered scientifically valid. I thought they were fun ways to look at widely held assumptions. They don’t prove their hypotheses, they show that the hypotheses is possible in some cases. Ideally they give others to try more experiments with possibly more rigorous standards.
Plus 1
For certain he triggers some awesome discussion about homebrewing, and that IS why we are here.
At first I thought you were getting your shorts in a bunch about people breaking down their hops into smaller bags…
I do a fair bit of side-by-side fermentations to compare yeast strains. Ideally, the way to do this is a split batch of the same wort. BUT, I’ve done it with two separate BIAB mashes, too.
You can get perfectly good results either way, but for small differences your results are more valid with a split batch.
And of course, you;re correct. That’s why we call it “citizen science”. But the more tightly you control the experiment, the more you learn.
So, I just read the article even though I commented earlier.
For what he’s testing, I don’t see the separate batches as a big deal.
If the differences between old and fresh hops are big, you’re going to notice the difference even with small variations in the base beer.
Since it appears they are subtle, me thinks I won’t worry about using my old hops. I’ve got some nugget hops that might just be as old as those Willamette.
I personally have never worried about using hops which are old and vacuum sealed. I have tried to throw away old leaf hops which I packaged (poorly). In fact I may need to take a good look at my freezer and get rid of some since I don’t have a lambic in mind. I just figure they aren’t going to be the best and freshest, but I typically get fresher hops for more hop centric brews and use the old ones where bittering is their role.
Yeah, that’s how I feel - in this experiment I’d have expected VERY noticeable results between the fresh and ancient hops, and that difference wasn’t really there. I don’t think the base wort (though made in separate batches) remotely figured into the tasters impressions. But I do see the value for many other experiments in using a big split batch of wort. I really appreciate all that Marshall does, not just for the info but for fighting long held brewing myths.
+1. What I find interesting is how much of the received wisdom spread on brewing websites is bogus - seemingly the vast majority of it, if the brulosophy experiments are to be trusted (twin-tailed significance tests notwithstanding). I reckon most people who offer “expert” brewing advice on the internet simply regurgitate what they’ve read on forums and aren’t speaking from experience. And so myths spread like viruses. I find it difficult to trust much of what I read on brewing forums now.
Congratulations on discovering the best homebrewing forum still in existence that dispels myths and has most of the best experts – right here. Hope you stick around, especially if you have an enquiring mind.
Bingo!
You can know nothing, as for help, have a guy like Denny show you the way, learn, progress, gain a little experience, and end up in a good stiff debate with the guy who taught you what you know, and guess what? Its all good!