I’ve used Horizon many times in Belgian beers and it seems to work great.
I’ve never used Horizon. It looks like it would be acceptable though. I look for a clean bittering hop for my European beers, Magnum certainly fits the bill, Horizon looks like it would too, but I usually buy hops by the pound and a pound of high alpha hops for low to moderately bitter beers would last me a couple of years. Using a couple of ounces of noble hopes for bittering is not that big a deal to me. That being said, I can’t wait to try this yeast, but my basement is rather cool still (will spring ever get here!), and my fermentation chamber has a German Pilsner in it presently.
Thanks, never used horizon before but will keep that in mind.
As far as Belgian brewers practices and homebrewers I will remind y’all we ain’t Belgian brewers. 
what may work for them and their techniques are vastly different from ours. We can try to mimic their practices but only to a certain degree. After much experimentation I have found that a relatively cool to works best for my Belgians/saison a. I usually ferment in the low to mid 60s for most Belgian/saison strains. The only one I found that really does work better at a warmer temp is 565 but even that I am starting in the 60s and ramping slowly into the 70s and low 80s.
Yup.
The problem I have with an uncontrolled, high temperature ramp is keeping the temperature up as fermentation slows. I can get the temp up to 80F, but even in an insulated fridge with a brew belt, a 5 gal bucket of wort isnt enough thermal mass to hold that temp until fermentation is complete.
This is the main reason why (I think) I’ve had fusel/phenol problems with Belgian beers in the past. Its a double-edged sword.
Pitch too low or control to ‘normal’ ferm temps = too low of a flavor contribution from the yeast
Pitch to high or dont control temp = temp drop at end of ferment, stressed yeast, fusels/phenols, poor attenuation.
Is this just a balancing act I haven’t mastered yet?
I stole this Saison hop regimen from a Northern Brewer recipe, but I really like it (for a 5 gallon batch):
1 oz EKG - 60 min
.25 oz each of Saaz and Styrian Goldings - 10 min
.75 oz each of Saaz and Styrian Goldings - 2 min
I brew mostly Belgians, and I’ve had the best success (at least with 3711, 3522 and 3787) pitching in the low 60s, fermenting in the upper 60s for 36 hours, then letting it rise up naturally into the low to mid 70s.
I’m always nervous about keeping it too cool for too long or letting it get too warm too soon.
This statement and others I have read like it raise questions. Does it assume 70* surroundings? Is it the yeast or the surrounding air temp that lets it ‘rise naturally’ into the low or mid 70’s?
I ferment in a kegerator with a 2 stage controller (controls heating and cooling), and it sits in my unheated / uncooled garage. During the winter it stays about 45*, during the Summer it stays about 80*. So I cannot rely on ambient temperature to provide a happy medium.
I have only read insufficient explanations in that there are so many variables not dealt with, one could end up way off base. So I guess my confusion lies in the statement “letting it rise naturally.” I don’t see that happening in my situation, so how do I replicate it through temperature control?
+1 to yso191 for yeasts and temps.
I just brewed with belle saison (nice to not mess with a starter)
1.052-1002 in two weeks (1.008 week 1).
Light grapefruit, citrus, dry, tart with med mouthfeel.
temps mid 66F - 74F
I live in Southern California, and the ambient temp in my fermentation area (in which sits the fermentation chest freezer) varies between 65 and 75 degrees depending on the time of year. In my case, it is a combination of the surrounding air temp and the heat generated by the yeast during fermentation that lets the temp rise into the 70s.
If you have a two stage controller and are fermenting in a kegerator, can’t you hook up your controller to both the kegerator and a heating source to keep fermentation temperatures exactly where you want them?
Although I rarely have to use it, I do have one of these heaters that I can tape to the inside of my chest freezer if I need to bring the temperature up a bit. It works pretty well.
That is precisely the issue. Yes I can, and yes I do. Since I can’t rely on atmospheric temperature I have to control it. So my question is how? What should that temperature pattern look like for a Belgian?
I do ferment most of my Belgians in the low to mid 60s as well. And 565 is the yeast that causes me the most grief. Isus is, my basement is in the low to mid 50s this winter and that is casuing me grief. My fermentation chamber, thankfully is programmable between -5C and 80C, which gives me all the temp control I need (it is glycol based). Problem is, can’t do a lager and an ale at the same time. ;) I do agree with all that has been said here, and am happy to see folks have had good results with the Belle Saison strain at normal (for us homebrewers) fermentation temperatures. If it can get down to 1.002, that’s great! I’m not a fan of WY3711, the mouthfeel is weird to me. I prefer 565 for my Saisons even if it is a PITA to use.
That looks very similar to Wyeast 3711 with the high attenuation at lower temperatures and med mouthfeel.
Pitch cool around 65F and raise the temp by 3F each day. I find using a desk lamp instead of a brew belt works better for heating a freezer, just put up some aluminum foil up to block the light if you are using a carboy.
Definitely behaves like 3711 from an attenuation / fermentation point of view.
The flavor profile is fairly different. I get a lot more black pepper from 3711. The citrus and fruit notes are similar, but 3711 seem to be more pronounced (lemon zest, orange, strawberry). Again, my experience may be due to fermentation temps.
I didn’t think the mouthfeel was all that out of the ordinary, but I did use a lot of wheat.
Transferred my first Belle Saison trial to secondary yesterday. OG 1.056 (pilz, wheat, aromatic malts, 1 lb light jaggery, mashed at 148). Made a 1500 ml starter 24 hours ahead. Based on my refractometer (adjusted with BeerSmith2) it was down to 1.000 after 8 days (I should note that I did not even add any yeast nutrient to the starter). I’m sure the refractometer estimate is not perfect, but this yeast clearly ate through the batch pretty ferociously. I ferment my saisons in a small room with a space heater. This one was kept at about 76-78 degrees after the second day. In the past I’ve used Wyeast French Saison 3711 which has always worked well (no stalls at similar ca. 80 degree temps). This one seems to have behaved similarly. Just had a small sample, but did not take specific notes. Had a “classic” saison aroma, though, and was already a very pleasant beer. I will certainly use this one again.
I brewed a batch using this yeast two days ago.
I don’t have much experiance with saisons, so I can’t really compare it to anything else.
Pitched the rehydrated yeast @ 68ºf, saw signs of fermentation after a couple hours.
After 24 hours I raised it up to 71º.
I plan on bumping it up another few degrees this evening.
I had trouble with my mash temps.
Started at 147º
After 45 minutes it was at 144º
I added some water and brought it up to 150º for another 45 minutes.
I am calculating 103% efficiancy. :o
I read the yeast specifications and it says that you have to inoculate at a rate of 1 gr per liter…so you probably use 2 packets per 5 gallon aprox in order to achieve that degree of attenuation. I know Danstar always suggests that for all their strains. But again, if i want to have a very dry saison like it should be… do i need to inoculate at that rate?
If you’re at a reasonable gravity (< 1.070), one rehydrated packet will do.
I had great results with just one.
Just remember to give it as much O2 as you can. It may not be true with this strain, but both WL and Wyeast suggest saison yeasts need more O2 than normal yeast for a healthy growth phase (12-15 ppm as opposed to 8-15 ppm).
I’m actually using this strain again for my next saison (brewday 5/5).
Mine went from 1.048 to 1.002 in 10 days.
Temps got to around 78º.
I agree with the “Light grapefruit, citrus, dry, tart with med mouthfeel.”
Belle Saison is close enough to 3711 for me that I doubt I’ll use 3711 ever again. Belle Saison is a beast. My latest super saison finished at 0.996 with plenty of mouthfeel.
They seem (at least) very similar, if not the same strain.