Oh start with malt 6lbs williams lager extract, 1lbs pilsnerDME, 1/2lbs dextrin. standard 60 min boil with hop additions at 60min and 5min. Plan on using wyeast american lager yeast 2035 pc. I am going to be on the high edge of this yeast so I am ready for comments on what might handle a slightly higher temp. This might be my last chance to do a true lager this season. ok now for the hops.
please give input on what you would use for boil or finish.
Cascade, Delta, Chinook, mosaic, Wai-iti, saaz, Hallertau, Lemondrop, Fuggles, and mullennium. That covers my freezer. I only want to use two and not drive my IBU’s over 20.
Thank You
For hop choice, I’d probably lean towards Hallertau from that list. For an American Lager, you might have better luck with WY2007 (reportedly Budweiser’s yeast strain). It stays pretty clean at warmer temps in my experience.
Can I ask a sideways question. I have just bottled a pseudo lager made with MJ Cali lager yeast, and I used Crystal and Hersbrucker hops. It’s much more like a pale ale, going by the sample taste. I rarely brew lagers, this is for a mate, who will be disappointed! I’m thinking the crystal hops have caused the biggest deviation, as the M54 yeast has made much more lager like beers for me and mates who have used it.
Do crystal hops have no place in a lager?
Crystal is a pretty solid American noble-type hop in my experience. But it’s still an American hop so is going to be more assertive and probably fresher than something imported. The hop flavor will mellow with time. Give it a 3-6 weeks of cold conditioning and see how it tastes.
+1 on the crystal – it’s kind of my go-to hop for a lot of lager styles because I really like it’s character. But Hallertau is a littlke more mild. Lemondrop is nice from the couple times I experimented with it.
No need to add that 1/2lb of dextrine malt in there. Extract beers tend to underattenuate sometimes and all the dextrine malt will do is add to that underattenuation. For extract beers it’s often better to substitute out a bit of plain ol’ table or corn sugar for some of the malt to dry the beer out as opposed to the dextrine malt which will just add more body and “sweetness”.
For a light hopped American Lager, and the presumption of ~5.5 gallons to the fermenter, you might want to try:
10 grams of Millennium, boiled for 60 minutes
7 grams of Cascade, boiled for 20 minutes
14 grams of Saaz, also boiled for 20 minutes
Cascade and Saaz play well together in my opinion.
Is it really possible to suggest amounts without knowing AA?
This is a very subjective, of course. I just tapped a cream ale made with only crystal hops. First time using this hop. It has rather expressive citrus and tropical-fruit notes, no spice or herbal. Great for a pale or blonde ale, but IMO this hop wouldn’t work well in an American or any other type of lager, unless you like fruity lagers (which I don’t).
I get a touch more citrus than with noble hops but not as expressive as what you are getting. Obviously it depends on how heavy of a hand you use. If you use a lot of hallertauer you will be surprised to see they can have a citrus component too. It also depends on the hop grower.
I have won a few awards with a Kölch that uses crystal. Obviously that is already a touch more fruity than a lager but it’s not like I threw in Amarillo. 
I agree using a lot of Euro noble hops in good condition can give a lot of fruity flavors. I wonder if people are just used to muted flavors in the hops and beers made with the hops due to degradation during shipping?
I thought this was interesting as well: The Hop Chronicles | German Tettnanger (2017) Pale Ale | Brülosophy
The top three aromas were apple/pear, tropical fruit, and citrus.
I ballparked Millennium at 12.4, Cascade at 6.5, and Saaz at 3. But I’m not convinced that it really matters, and particularly more so with pellet hops, because I’m of the opinion that all current IBU calculation math models are de-Facto useless when applied to pellets.
I find the mIBU calculations pretty accurate for pellets, at least by my tastebuds. Hope to get some beers analyzed soon.
@clibit - what was the timing of the Crystal addition(s) in your beer?
I have gotten citrus out of a lot of noble and “noblish” hops when used late in larger amounts. Sterling gets that way, and I take advantage of that when I choose to, but I have also picked up citrus from Crystal and German Tettnang from late additions.
Chemistry Professor Christopher S. Hamilton, Ph.D, Hillsdale College gave a presentation titled “The Effect of Temperature and Alpha-Acid Concentration on Hop Utilization in Wort” at the EBC Hop Symposium in Nuremberg, Germany, in September of 2018. His presentation indicates that pellet hop utilization is realized much more quickly within the boil than for whole hops. Essentially he showed that after only about 30 to 40 minutes of boiling, a pellet hop will have delivered to the Wort as many IBU’s as for a whole leaf type hop of the same AA after 60 to 90 minutes of boiling. This is a dramatic difference that no current publicly available math model accounts for.
He might be a great interview for ‘Experimental Brewing’.
I make a good number of American Lagers although I am not trying to brew “bland beer” or any specific American Lager. I’m trying to make a gold lager, around 5%, SRM 4-5 and IBUs around 20 or so. Hallertau would be my choice of the hops listed and I would bitter to 18-20 IBUs and then add maybe a ½ ounce with 5 minutes left. 2035 is an American Lager strain (Yuengling’s strain, IIRC) and it will make a nice beer. For mine I typically use 2124 or 940 which means my American Lager uses German hops and either German/Czech yeast or Mexican yeast. I do use pilsner malt either from Europe or the US and I also use about 10% corn.
Also, I’ll say it again one more time for the west coast: Within reason, fresher hops that are not appropriate are better than stale and appropriate hops. I wouldn’t want to sub with fresh Amarillo or Citra in an American Lager (although some do) but if you had Liberty, Mt. Hood, Edelweiss, fresh Saaz or Spalt, Sterling, etc. they should make the beer better because they’re fresher.
Hallertau
Thanks. I’m in England so Crystal hops are more imported for me than German hops, sort of, but good advice about the cold conditioning. I’ll see how it goes. I actually like the beer, it’s just not what I targeted! So far at least. Cheers
Thanks. They were added at flameout. I’ve not had this kind of flavour from German noble hops, added late.
sadly I discovered wyeast 2035 pc no longer available so I went with wyeast 2112 a california yeast. recommended for steam beers which mine is not. Hoping for the best.