I sure don’t listen to Brewstrong as much as I did a few years ago. But, last night while brewing, I listened to the recent Q&A on going pro.
Jamil was dogging BJCP judges pretty harshly. Calling them morans more than once. Has his commercial success gone to his head?
It put a bad taste in my mouth. I’ve always (and probably still do) respect the man very much.
Anyway, I turned it off, and downloaded one of Brad Smith’s podcast.
Hadn’t heard it. I guess we can all have bad days. As a new comer to this, I view judges as the priesthood of brewing. I think its awesome they keep us in line but its fun to do your own thing too. I used crystal in a dark Belgian strong once and it made me feel so naughty lol
“Friends don’t let friends drink bad beer”
we’re certainly not perfect, and there are some bad apples. A judge this weekend mentioned that he had lost his sense of smell a few years ago. Wow, interesting choice of hobby…
but I think we’re pretty good, and getting better. And if I thought poorly of BJCP judges I certainly wouldn’t send dozens of entries to NHC…shrug
cheers–
–Michael
I am not a judge or ever judged (hope to change that someday soon) so I wouldn’t ever call these guys morons. Jamil, on several occassions, has opined about some of the judges abilities to fill out scoresheets or their lack of skill in filling out these sheets. He’s even listed examples from nationally ranked judges.
Another area that he’s complained about, and Gordon Strong has agreed with, is telling people how they brewed something just by tasting the beer. His thoughts are how a judge can know a person’s specific brewing process by detecting a flaw, when that flaw could be the result of several factors regardless of their process.
One of the reasons I haven’t become a BJCP judge yet is I’m not confident in my ability to judge a beer according to style. I’m trying to increase my knowledge before doing so. I know there’s a seriuos shortage of judges but is it better to have that than a flood of judges who don’t know what they’re doing.
Yes, constructive criticism of the process should not offend anyone. But to call BJCP moran’s three or four times in less than a minute turned me off. I am not a judge. But, I have seen how hard these folks work to provide scoresheets that mean something to the brewer.
I would suggest you go to a comp and volunteer to judge. They will sit you with experienced judges. Even as a stewart I have had judges (Gordon Strong being one) that offered me a taste, and described the specific off flavors in that sample. It was quite educational.
was he referring to BJCP judges in general or a particular sector? cause I have received some score sheets that might well make me agree with him about certain judges.
BJCP judges are FAR from perfect and national rank does not necessarily imply a higher sensory ability, just a better descriptive and test taking ability and/or dedication to judging.
That said, I respect the effort made and hope to move in that direction myself soon.
** EDIT TO ADD **
I actually wouldn’t call them morons because I don’t really see the point of being mean to people in general. It rarely makes any situation better. but I understand the sentiment and Jamil is a kinda gruff guy.
Caveat: I’ve never been judged
It seems anything can go to far. I enjoy the BJCP style guidelines. However, when it gets to the point that you are arrested as a heretic for using an off style ingredient…
Its good to have rules though. But they don’t always have to be followed. Especially if your not competing.
There’s also a DIY vs store bought faction. Reinheitsgebot vs fruit and sprinkles crowd. Fun vs serious. Its all good. Keeps it interesting. I remember when it was just beer. Boring!
“Friends don’t let friends drink bad beer”
I am not a BJCP judge. I have judged at sanctioned competitions. I have organized BJCP competitions and I have stewarded at local and NHC level. Some people judging at BJCP level are not doing what they were awarded their credentials for. The score sheets are sorely lacking in useful information and thoroughness.
This is very disappointing to people competing to better their beers. For some judges, it’s obvious that judging has become a chore they don’t enjoy or take as seriously as they should. They should stop judging.
Fortunately, there are a huge number of qualified judges doing an exemplary job of providing the feedback most of us are competing for. It’s the luck of the draw really. Don’t give up after one or two crumby experiences. After a while, some of the score sheets become entertaining in what they reveal about the judge!
You can not judge something with no criteria against which to judge. In beer comps it’s the style guideline.
Trust me…there is nothing so heartbreaking as tasting an absolutely perfect beer that can’t win only because it has been entered in the wrong category, but, there’s plenty of opportunity to commend the brewer in the final section of the score sheet. (overall impression)
when you’re having to judge it.
Judges do a thankless job, at their own expense. They miss out on some of the activities at NHC and other festivals where the competitions are held. They travel to various locations at their own expense and all they get are measly points toward higher ranking for their efforts. They should never, ever be dissed. Shame on Jamil for doing so. He’s undoubtedly a great brewer and I respect that, but it’s disappointing to hear that he made disparaging comments when so many homebrewers idolize him. Go ahead and criticize when it is called for. Judges need to be held to high standards if they are going to contribute to the brewing community, but it can be done in a civil and constructive manner. Then again, the whole tenor of the Brewing Network programs is very juvenile, albeit, while providing some good information.
We all know that judges aren’t perfect, but it seems that Jamil’s comments were very impolitic and illustrate the reason I don’t listen to BN shows. I may be missing some good info, but it just insults me as much as television advertising does.
Jamil used to say hello and shake my hand at NHC’s in the past, but for a couple years he’s been distant. Maybe I’m one of the judges he is ranting about since there’s a pretty good chance I judged some of his beer in the finals when he was going for Ninkasi.
The thing about being a beer judge is that it is sorta stressful to judge someone’s beer. You never know if it’s Gordon Strong’s or Jamil’s or some new guy’s so you have to be careful of what you write.
High rank in my case simply means that I take tests well and have been around a long time.
I do fill up the entire score sheet, hopefully with pertinent information and use all the clues available to formulate an opinion.
This is exactly why I don’t listen to the BN anymore. Their dick joke to good information ratio is about 10:1 whereas I like it to be more around 1:5.
I have met Jamil a few times, the first time was right before he opened his brewery. We met for beers at the Toranado on Haight St. He was wonderfully nice to me. We talked for hours about beers, breweries and the like. The last time was NHC 2012, where I explained our first meeting again. He simply grunted and turned away. A bit strange if you ask me. So perhaps it isn’t just you, jeffy! 
At any rate, I don’t think calling judges “morons” is appropriate for all the reasons mentioned above.
Yeah, those judges suck… they expect every beer to taste like Jamil’s stupid recipe even though many styles vary greatly ;D
Well if anyone needs to be snubbed I’ll do it for a cold beer. Can’t promise to keep a straight face though.
“Friends don’t let friends drink bad beer”
Thanks, but I can get it from my club for free!
I listened to it for the first year or two when it was “underground” … when they went with the heavy production and heavy commercial bent I lost inserts. Nothing against those guys, I met a few of them and they were great in person, but the product is not for me, personally. And I guess that’s ok.
Brew Strong was never a very good show, IMHO. Jamil and Justin and the crew had other great shows for a lot of years, but then in the past 3 years or thereabouts, the whole BN thing just kind of flopped, at least that’s how it felt for me. I don’t listen to any of it anymore, except maybe the occasional episode from 2007-2008 from the good ole days. I agree with others that the crap-to-quality ratio has swung too far. 10:1 isn’t even close. It’s more like 500:1 these days.
As for judges, I might actually have to agree with Jamil (not personally hearing his actual points being made, but anyway…) that there are a surprising number of crap judges out there. I say this, and I myself am a Recognized judge (and a damn fine one, at that – just ask me). Enter a couple of competitions, and you’ll find my opinion about crap judges to be true very quickly when you get scoresheets back that don’t make any sense and/or provide zero useful feedback. Happens everyday, all the time, all over the place.
BJCP will never be perfect. There are too many thousands of judges and we cannot all be policed, nor should we be. We are all entitled to our own opinions based on our own experiences and knowledge base, which have an extremely broad range, and some of us write a hell of a lot more than others (ha ha). All I can try to do as a judge is to dish out the same level of feedback that I would expect if I were entering, or better – go the extra mile and try to make the homebrew world a better place. That’s what I strive for.
Here is a thought: It is possible to be egotistical, AND to be correct, at the same time. Occasionally somebody gets it right. Jamil might be one of those guys. Personally I don’t always agree with everything he says, far from it in fact. But undeniably, he is a pretty smart dude, and he’s accomplished a lot. If it’s all gone to his head, well… can you really blame him? I don’t know. I’m not sure what I’d do in his situation. It’s hard for a camel to get through the eye of a needle and all that. You also need to remember that Jamil is not Jesus. He is not to be worshipped. He is human. Give him a break! You don’t like what he has to say? Offended? Fine, go listen to some other podcast, who cares. If I were him, I’d expect the same response.
Personally my favorite podcast of all time was Craft Brewer Radio with Graham Sanders. He was wrong. A lot. A ton of technical errors. But a lot of good tidbits in there too. And entertaining to listen to. For educational podcasts, Basic Brewing all the way baby. Love that one. It’s very dry, but chock full of good info and minimal fluff. If you don’t like Brew Strong, rest assured – there are many great podcasts out there.
Thanks for your impassioned views. I think it’s great we have this board to discuss such views.
For me, I agree that Jamil was a skilled homebrewer, and his opinions, views, and outlook continue to be relevant. But, I have personally witnessed BJCP judges giving their all to this hobby. And for anyone to call them “morons” is just sick and wrong.
Without them, and all that support them, the AHA would cease to exist.
One thing to remember always is that BJCP os judging to style. If you send a West coast APA to Tulsa it will be treated according to their interpretation of style.
If an American judge is tasting Duesseldorf Altbier And hasnt been to Duesseldorf can you fault him for not getting it right? Their arent good American commercial examples of the style.
Judging is subjective based on tastes and perception. If they charged more for competitions there might be room to complain.
I am not really a fan of Jamil, but I do like John Palmer. I still listen to the Brewstrong, but it is not high on my list. I prefer Brad Smith and Better Brewing Radio.
As far as judging goes, it can be very subjective. I am in classes for BJCP certification. I am currently a provisional judge, and will be taking my tests next month. We have recently been using the Siebel Institute’s flaw kit for tasting flaws and other flavors. Everyone has a different threshold for flaws. Some I picked up on right away, some I could not detect, though others could clearly pick up on it. I have judged 2 comps, and did get to try some very off beers. Some were downright horrible. Many homebrewers (myself included) think their beers are the sh!t. One of my categories was English Brown. There were 15 beers in the flight. 8 of them were flawed. 2 were clearly in the wrong category. When you have limited time, and a lot of beers to judge, it can be very difficult to spend a lot of time on writing a full and comprehensive score sheet. Not everyone can get the information they think they should get.
I also entered my DIPA in two recent comps. One was a state wide comp here in Colorado, and one was the NHC. The local comp scored it a 27 ( one judge was a national) and the NHC scored it a 38. (one judge was a master) Same beer, same batch,same everything. two very different scores. Take your scores with a grain of salt. Not everyone can be a Grand Master.
English Brown? Wouldn’t a sh!t beer be a Boneless Brown? I think its 99F
“Friends don’t let friends drink bad beer”