I feel the same.
Without going on another loosely-related tangent, I have been looking at O2 pickup and I think that my brewdays are (were) filled with far more O2-pickup than most brewers. I pour, I splash, I stir, I recirc… when I chill, I stir some more and when I transfer to primary I rack through a strainer and let it rain. I do not have a DO meter but my guess is that I was allowing more O2 into my beers than I should have and even in the early stages of a beer, O2 can zap out malt depth and create an ungraceful finish in the beer. As a result I tried brewtan and although some people claim “bias confirmation” (and I don’t necessarily argue), my beers seem much softer, smoother, cleaner and they have more malt depth and hop definition than I was getting before. I think Denny described it as a more “integrated” beer flavor and that’s a good description. On top of that I switched to an SS chiller (copper is oxidative, apparently), I adjusted my mash volume up and sparge volume down, I’m conditioning my malt and also skipping secondary and going from primary directly to CO2-purged keg. I’m making the best beers of my 17-year brewing odyssey.
Denny - I’m with you there, I don’t have a single solution. But, as a community, we can identify and measure the problem and brainstorm ways to improve.
Blatz - Yea, time is certainly a factor.
I’m not implying that if you let a little O2 in you’re IPA is going to taste like wet cardboard and suck. But rather that taking efforts to eliminate as much cold-side O2 as possible seems to result in a more intense and longer lasting dry hop aroma.
There may be a slider too. If the camp that believes dry hopping off the yeast is better is correct, then maybe the yeast activity in a naturally carbonated IPA will be a detractor. A lot of variables I’m looking forward to exploring.
Right… I remember now. ~10psi sounds like a reasonable pressure for carbing and my guess is that it would take 5-7 days to reach your goal. Thanks for the conversion.
Yea, my lager’s are night and day better since I incorporated the low-O2, cold fermentation, and spunding method’s outlined by the GB team. My challenge now is incorporating my lager-centric process improvement’s into my Pale Ale brewing (and all the challenges that ale fermentations and dry hopping add).
Right on the money, Paul!
Gotta say, I’d like to see somebody with a DO meter do a batch with Brewtan B and no spunding, just basic closed transfers, and compare the difference in final levels. Might be interesting to see.
There doesn’t seem to be a consensus yet. Denny has been cautious but has also said he thought he detected smoother beer. A few others have thought there was an improvement but then backed off when doing side-by-side tests. I absolutely notice softer, smoother beer (ale and lager) and if it’s conformation bias, then CB must be a very powerful thing. If this is all in my head, I need to have my head examined. 
Being cautious, too. I feel like the Ofest is noticeably softer and has better malt character. OTOH I’m using Barke malts for the first time which, even eaten raw, are noticeably better. So who knows. The other test is gonna come in sampling the beer in 6 months, to see how its freshness holds up bottled from keg. But the real test won’t come until I do a dual APA brewday soon, one with Brewtan the other without. Hoping to do that soon.
I’ve tried to avoid the threads, but has anyone doing the LODO process done a side-by-side or triangle yet? My recollection is not.
As far as the topic of the thread, I don’t dry-hop much, but when I do it’s typically in kegs that are sitting in my cool room at ~60 degrees.
Not as far as I know.
I also changed some other things at the same time but I think that everything I’ve done has had a positive impact. On my lagers with Barke, I thought the same thing about the difference in the beer. But I have also noticed improvement in my pale ales made with a fresh sack of Rahr base malt. The APA test where one is brewtan and one is not should provide some good information. Again I will state that it’s possible that someone who is already very careful about O2-pickup may not get the same results with brewtan as someone who splashed their way through brewday. Anyone who already has low O2-pickup doesn’t need brewtan as much as someone whose beer is loaded with oxygen. Just thinking out loud.
That’s what I thought. I’ve been doing closed transfers to the keg on my last couple of batches (pushing out the star san, etc.). I can’t say that it’s made a difference, but it can’t hurt and it doesn’t cost me anything.
These days, I’m mostly brewing for parties and the kegs go quick so any long-term oxidation doesn’t get the chance to appear.
Because my goal was to get an idea of what Brewtan B did, I changed nothing about my process other than using it. I’ve done a back to back brew where the only variable was the Brewtan, and several brews of familiar beers to get a more subjective assessment. I feel like changing more than one thing won’t really be testing the Brewtan. I’ve got maybe 2-3 more batches to brew to evaluate ingredients/equipment I’ve been sent, but after that it will be back to Brewtan testing. I also want to talk to Joe Formanaek on the show as soon as the 3 of us can work out the scheduling.
There’s been several side by sides with the mini-mash test. Do it yourself if you want - their tend to be differences in color and flavor.
It’s one of those things… how to put it? I used to brew my lagers with a ramp up at the end of fermentation, transfer to a C02 purged serving keg, gelatin/crash, and force carb. Now I cold ferment, spund, keep O2 low, and lager > gelling. Even bought a copy of Kunze and a DO meter. The difference is stark. Like imagine if your goal was to brew authentic American IPA but you had never tried dry hopping before. Then one brew day you added 4oz of citra dry hops to your recipe. You wouldn’t really feel the need to blind test yourself, you’d call it a win and keep exploring dry hopping methods.
That being said, I can’t distinguish for certain which variables specifically are most leading to awesome lager (is it the oxygen? The fermentation schedule? The Spunding? The natural lagering?). I’m planning to brew up a shit ton of Helles soon so maybe I’ll throw one batch in there with zero-care given to O2 and see how it shakes out.
I don’t think anyone’s suggesting that there should be zero care given to O2, just questioning the role of confirmation bias in the testimonials. But I don’t want to argue it and we’re derailing the thread…
Found it! If only I knew what a 1/4 NPT to barb fitting is and how I can find it in Europe 
I don’t want to sound like a cheerleader for brewtan but this is how I felt after sampling the first brewtan beer I made… a helles that I make A LOT. Yes, there were other variables that I already mentioned but the beer was night and day different based on years of making the same recipe. There were calls for data and triangle testing. I said, “I don’t need no stinking testing!” but then the “confirmation bias” came into the picture and so now I just keep my mouth shut and drink my beer. :D Again, whatever it is… something has changed for the better.
A bar is just under 1 Atmosphere. 8 bar would be roughly 8*14.5 PSI = 116 PSI, so that was bad advice. Even .8 bar is on the high side. 8 PSI is more in the range for a lager at lager temps.