Dunkelweizen - Under Construction

[Megary]

Looking for thoughts on a first pass at a Dunkelweizen.
I won’t be using anything besides what I list, or what I currently have in inventory to sub in.

Thanks in advance.

Stats:
Fermenter Vol: 3 gal
OG 1.050
IBU - 15-20
BU:GU - .36
SRM - 18
ABV - 5%

Grains:
I realize this is not 50% wheat so I can call this an American Dark Wheat in order to not run afoul with the style-police. 
46% Pale Wheat
46% Munich
5% Victory
3% Carafa II

Possible appropriate subs that I have in stock are Dark Munich, Vienna, Pale Chocolate, Melanoidin, C120, or British Crystal 50/60.

Hops:
I was only planning on an early bittering addition so I’m not sure it matters much.
Nugget, Bravo, Magnum, or Mt Hood are all possibilities.

I have some Saaz and Tettnang to add late if necessary but I won’t waste these for IBU’s.

Yeast:
Lallemand Munich Classic
No options here, I already have the packet.
I’ve never used this yeast before so I’m not sure what to expect attenuation-wise.

Mash:
BIAB single infusion.
Estimated pH 5.48
152° for 60 minutes
60 minute Boil

Water:
House water slightly treated with Lactic to adjust pH and Gypsum to add a little SO4.  SO4:CL 1:1, give or take.
A close approximation to Bru’n Water’s “Brown Full” target.

Fermentation:
I would like some banana and clove, but not much.  So in order to keep the yeast character relatively low, I plan to pitch the whole packet, no underpitching.  Ferment in the mid 60’s.  Maybe raise to 70-72 towards the end of fermentation.

Packaging:
Keg to approximately 2.75-3 vols.

[dmtaylor (Dave Taylor)]

Looks very good.  Specific feedback:

I realize this is not 50% wheat so I can call this an American Dark Wheat in order to not run afoul with the style-police. 

Close enough IMO!

Yeast:
Lallemand Munich Classic
No options here, I already have the packet.
I’ve never used this yeast before so I’m not sure what to expect attenuation-wise.

Probably between about 70-75%, i.e., pretty “normal”.

I don’t see the need to make any tweaks, honestly.  This should be good.

[erockrph]

First and foremost, I think that this will make a great Dunkelweizen as written.

Personally, I like a bit of CaraMunich II or III in my dunkelweizen. If I were brewing it for myself, I’d probably use the C 50/60 in place of the Victory. But that’s personal preference and I think it will be just fine with Victory there.

[Megary]

Thanks for the replies.  Your comments have helped me come to terms with all the time I spent researching this style and putting this recipe together. 

My biggest concern with this style is in bold, as quoted from the BJCP guidelines:
A moderately dark German wheat beer with a distinctive banana-and-clove yeast character, supported by a toasted bread or caramel malt flavor. Highly carbonated and refreshing, with a creamy, fluffy texture and light finish that encourages drinking.

So…Malty and drinkable.  Hmm.  Sounds like 10% recipe, 90% process to me.  I think you guys have me convinced that I got the 10% part down.  Lol.

I struggled with Mash temp, SO4:Cl ratio (or more specifically, the total SO4), fermentation temp and even CO2 volumes - all of which I find to greatly affect the drinkability of a beer.  The last thing I want is a sweet, malt bomb.

In the end, I feel like I’m betting the middle to give myself a base for future reference.

EDIT I’ve decided to move the water target to Brown Balanced.  Not sure why I chose Full in the first place.  More middling.

[Megary]

I brewed this yesterday and had noticeable air lock activity in 3 hours and a nice Krausen in 6. ?! (1 full pack in 3 gallons)

I’m unfamiliar with Munich Classic, is it always such a quick worker?  Lallemand does say “vigorous fermentation that can be completed in 4 days”, so I suppose so.

[fredthecat]

I brewed this yesterday and had noticeable air lock activity in 3 hours and a nice Krausen in 6. ?! (1 full pack in 3 gallons)

I’m unfamiliar with Munich Classic, is it always such a quick worker?  Lallemand does say “vigorous fermentation that can be completed in 4 days”, so I suppose so.

yup, i started mine with munich classic a few weeks ago, did ~70% of the packet and it was off like a rocket within a few hours. attached a blowoff tube if you havent.

[fredthecat]

@fredthecat

I brewed this yesterday and had noticeable air lock activity in 3 hours and a nice Krausen in 6. ?! (1 full pack in 3 gallons)

I’m unfamiliar with Munich Classic, is it always such a quick worker?  Lallemand does say “vigorous fermentation that can be completed in 4 days”, so I suppose so.

yup, i started mine with munich classic a few weeks ago, did ~70% of the packet and it was off like a rocket within a few hours. attached a blowoff tube if you havent.

for anyone reading: bottled it the other day. i tried to ferment what i thought would be quite high, low-mid 70s internal temp to get banana. it is mostly clove and overall seems muted, body seems quite good. did 76% attenuation, huge head. im hoping when its carbonated that will propel some banana aroma up. we’ll see. seems good so far.

[Megary]

@fredthecat

@fredthecat

I brewed this yesterday and had noticeable air lock activity in 3 hours and a nice Krausen in 6. ?! (1 full pack in 3 gallons)

I’m unfamiliar with Munich Classic, is it always such a quick worker?  Lallemand does say “vigorous fermentation that can be completed in 4 days”, so I suppose so.

yup, i started mine with munich classic a few weeks ago, did ~70% of the packet and it was off like a rocket within a few hours. attached a blowoff tube if you havent.

for anyone reading: bottled it the other day. i tried to ferment what i thought would be quite high, low-mid 70s internal temp to get banana. it is mostly clove and overall seems muted, body seems quite good. did 76% attenuation, huge head. im hoping when its carbonated that will propel some banana aroma up. we’ll see. seems good so far.

I kegged my Munich Classic Dunkelweizen yesterday, 8 days after pitch.  73% attenuation, temp was ≈68-70° for the duration.  The hydrometer sample had a banana aroma with a mix of banana/spice to taste.  Little to no roast.  (Though, I put very little stock in the hydrometer sample other than to see if I’m in the ballpark.)  I’ll know more this weekend when it’s ready.

[dmtaylor (Dave Taylor)]

Thank you folks both for keeping us informed of how these are turning out.  I am staying tuned. 

[fredthecat]

@dmtaylor

Thank you folks both for keeping us informed of how these are turning out.  I am staying tuned. 

cracked one after just a few days. ooh boy, theres some banana. lots of it. wow. again good. gonna say this is good so far. fair bit of vanilla which is weird but i think it will mature well.

[Megary]

For the record, I pitched one full 11g pack into 3 gallons of 1.051 wort that had 1 servomyces capsule added at 10 minutes left in the boil.  According to Lallemand’s pitch rate calculator the recommended amount was 7.24g, so I tossed in a significant over-pitch.  Yeast was added as the fermenter was filling. I gave the beer a good swirl, but no oxygen was added beyond that.  Started fermentation at an internal temp of 67-68 and saw it rise to 72 for about a day at peak activity, then gradually settle back to 70 then 68.  Krausen appeared in 6 hours, HK was overnight for me so probably 18-24 post pitch.  All signs of fermentation were done in 4 days.  Packaged on day 8.

The AROMA for this beer is a mess.  I’m getting a bready, malty, slightly chocolate/roast, banana thing.  It sounds like a success but these aren’t marrying very well.  It comes off as a bit…musty and off-putting.  There were no late hop additions (can’t imagine what that would have done) so I can only point fingers here at the yeast and how it was handled by the brewer!  Maybe the grain bill, but I doubt it.

The TASTE of the beer is something else entirely.  The banana and roast are present but they don’t overwhelm. I’m getting zero spice/clove, whatever.  There is a bready but clean mouthfeel with what I swear is a hint of lemon citrus.  Finishes dry.  Quite tasty.

The beer pours as it should, carbonated appropriately, nice tan head, clingy on the glass.

But that aroma…

My last glass for the night I added 1/8 tsp of vanilla extract pre-pour. It knocked the aroma back to something more manageable and gave the beer a very nice banana bread flavor. It was definitely my favorite.

Lots to think about for me.  The promise of a great beer is here, but so many dials to turn that I’m not sure where to take the yeast next. Pitch to the recommended rate?  Ferment colder?  Warmer?  Longer?

I also wonder about the 1/4 tsp of lactic I used in the mash for pH purposes. I’ve read some suggestions to not worry about pH here, just let it ride.

[fredthecat]

For the record, I pitched one full 11g pack into 3 gallons of 1.051 wort that had 1 servomyces capsule added at 10 minutes left in the boil.  According to Lallemand’s pitch rate calculator the recommended amount was 7.24g, so I tossed in a significant over-pitch.  Yeast was added as the fermenter was filling. I gave the beer a good swirl, but no oxygen was added beyond that.  Started fermentation at an internal temp of 67-68 and saw it rise to 72 for about a day at peak activity, then gradually settle back to 70 then 68.  Krausen appeared in 6 hours, HK was overnight for me so probably 18-24 post pitch.  All signs of fermentation were done in 4 days.  Packaged on day 8.

The AROMA for this beer is a mess.  I’m getting a bready, malty, slightly chocolate/roast, banana thing.  It sounds like a success but these aren’t marrying very well.  It comes off as a bit…musty and off-putting.  There were no late hop additions (can’t imagine what that would have done) so I can only point fingers here at the yeast and how it was handled by the brewer!  Maybe the grain bill, but I doubt it.

The TASTE of the beer is something else entirely.  The banana and roast are present but they don’t overwhelm. I’m getting zero spice/clove, whatever.  There is a bready but clean mouthfeel with what I swear is a hint of lemon citrus.  Finishes dry.  Quite tasty.

The beer pours as it should, carbonated appropriately, nice tan head, clingy on the glass.

But that aroma…

My last glass for the night I added 1/8 tsp of vanilla extract pre-pour. It knocked the aroma back to something more manageable and gave the beer a very nice banana bread flavor. It was definitely my favorite.

Lots to think about for me.  The promise of a great beer is here, but so many dials to turn that I’m not sure where to take the yeast next. Pitch to the recommended rate?  Ferment colder?  Warmer?  Longer?

I also wonder about the 1/4 tsp of lactic I used in the mash for pH purposes. I’ve read some suggestions to not worry about pH here, just let it ride.

i did an intentional ~70% of an 11g packet for 5 gallons. og about 1.055 i think ~14 IBU no late. bottled from primary after 21 days. tried one the other night while drunk and it was really good, no intense complexity but checks the boxes for a good hefeweizen. i might try one tonight, not sure, if so i’ll let you know. far from dry, definitely malty and sweet.

also my krausen formed really quickly. i was super impressed with munich classic overall.

[Megary]

@fredthecat

For the record, I pitched one full 11g pack into 3 gallons of 1.051 wort that had 1 servomyces capsule added at 10 minutes left in the boil.  According to Lallemand’s pitch rate calculator the recommended amount was 7.24g, so I tossed in a significant over-pitch.  Yeast was added as the fermenter was filling. I gave the beer a good swirl, but no oxygen was added beyond that.  Started fermentation at an internal temp of 67-68 and saw it rise to 72 for about a day at peak activity, then gradually settle back to 70 then 68.  Krausen appeared in 6 hours, HK was overnight for me so probably 18-24 post pitch.  All signs of fermentation were done in 4 days.  Packaged on day 8.

The AROMA for this beer is a mess.  I’m getting a bready, malty, slightly chocolate/roast, banana thing.  It sounds like a success but these aren’t marrying very well.  It comes off as a bit…musty and off-putting.  There were no late hop additions (can’t imagine what that would have done) so I can only point fingers here at the yeast and how it was handled by the brewer!  Maybe the grain bill, but I doubt it.

The TASTE of the beer is something else entirely.  The banana and roast are present but they don’t overwhelm. I’m getting zero spice/clove, whatever.  There is a bready but clean mouthfeel with what I swear is a hint of lemon citrus.  Finishes dry.  Quite tasty.

The beer pours as it should, carbonated appropriately, nice tan head, clingy on the glass.

But that aroma…

My last glass for the night I added 1/8 tsp of vanilla extract pre-pour. It knocked the aroma back to something more manageable and gave the beer a very nice banana bread flavor. It was definitely my favorite.

Lots to think about for me.  The promise of a great beer is here, but so many dials to turn that I’m not sure where to take the yeast next. Pitch to the recommended rate?  Ferment colder?  Warmer?  Longer?

I also wonder about the 1/4 tsp of lactic I used in the mash for pH purposes. I’ve read some suggestions to not worry about pH here, just let it ride.

i did an intentional ~70% of an 11g packet for 5 gallons. og about 1.055 i think ~14 IBU no late. bottled from primary after 21 days. tried one the other night while drunk and it was really good, no intense complexity but checks the boxes for a good hefeweizen. i might try one tonight, not sure, if so i’ll let you know. far from dry, definitely malty and sweet.

also my krausen formed really quickly. i was super impressed with munich classic overall.

I’m really interested in how your Hefe turned out malty and sweet and my Dunkelweizen was definitely on the dry side.  What temp did you mash at and did you take a FG reading?  (I was 152 and finished at 1.014).  Anything you can think of that explains the sweetness??

This brewing thing is so damn confusing.

[fredthecat]

I’m really interested in how your Hefe turned out malty and sweet and my Dunkelweizen was definitely on the dry side.  What temp did you mash at and did you take a FG reading?  (I was 152 and finished at 1.014).  Anything you can think of that explains the sweetness??

This brewing thing is so damn confusing.

so i used briess bavarian wheat DME as i wanted a quick brew to get some stuff to drink as i opened my brewing season. its apparently 65/35 wheat/barley and people say it works out well.

i also used 500g munich and 500g crystal 40. it is quite sweet and quite malty. i think the cause is these two. i like it, but it isa heavy weisse, and also ended up at about 5.8% ABV. FG was 1.013. tbh the munich isnt the greatest. ive had weird issues with munich in my homebrew since starting up again. i used to find it refined, now it creates a huge overly strong high malt flavour. idk how to describe it.

500g wasnt a big deal though, so it is definitely hitting both clove and banana notes now. i wouldnt say this is excellent, but it is on par with a mid tier hefeweizen from germany (not bavaria midtier). pleased enough. would 100% ditch the munich next time, likely keep the crystal. would pitch the same

[fredthecat]

final reply. i love writing feedback - so now, 3 weeks after bottling - Overall analysis

stronger head stability compared to very disappointing early after bottling.
flavour has ended up clove heavy with a small amount of banana, despite my hope/expectation for more banana
flavour is hotter than commercial examples, i should have just pitched the whole packet for 5 gallons
i carbonated to about 3.0 with dextrose, and while it feels carbonated enough to compare with commercial examples - it is definitely more watery than commercial ones which krausen or spund or ?. i was close to using DME to carbonate in bottles, but didn’t. a mistake i believe.

would i use munich classic again. i think so, but since i haven’t tried a liquid weizen yeast yet, i might be tempted to do so. pretty happy with it overall.

[Megary]

For the record, I pitched one full 11g pack into 3 gallons of 1.051 wort that had 1 servomyces capsule added at 10 minutes left in the boil.  According to Lallemand’s pitch rate calculator the recommended amount was 7.24g, so I tossed in a significant over-pitch.  Yeast was added as the fermenter was filling. I gave the beer a good swirl, but no oxygen was added beyond that.  Started fermentation at an internal temp of 67-68 and saw it rise to 72 for about a day at peak activity, then gradually settle back to 70 then 68.  Krausen appeared in 6 hours, HK was overnight for me so probably 18-24 post pitch.  All signs of fermentation were done in 4 days.  Packaged on day 8.

The AROMA for this beer is a mess.  I’m getting a bready, malty, slightly chocolate/roast, banana thing.  It sounds like a success but these aren’t marrying very well.  It comes off as a bit…musty and off-putting.  There were no late hop additions (can’t imagine what that would have done) so I can only point fingers here at the yeast and how it was handled by the brewer!  Maybe the grain bill, but I doubt it.

The TASTE of the beer is something else entirely.  The banana and roast are present but they don’t overwhelm. I’m getting zero spice/clove, whatever.  There is a bready but clean mouthfeel with what I swear is a hint of lemon citrus.  Finishes dry.  Quite tasty.

The beer pours as it should, carbonated appropriately, nice tan head, clingy on the glass.

But that aroma…

My last glass for the night I added 1/8 tsp of vanilla extract pre-pour. It knocked the aroma back to something more manageable and gave the beer a very nice banana bread flavor. It was definitely my favorite.

Lots to think about for me.  The promise of a great beer is here, but so many dials to turn that I’m not sure where to take the yeast next. Pitch to the recommended rate?  Ferment colder?  Warmer?  Longer?

I also wonder about the 1/4 tsp of lactic I used in the mash for pH purposes. I’ve read some suggestions to not worry about pH here, just let it ride.

After a few weeks with this beer, this style has more than piqued my interest.

The Munich Classic Dunkelweizen ended up with very little banana and clove, a strange aroma, a hint of lemony acid and an incredible sessionability. Nice and crisp, dry, and smooth.  So I got some things right and some things wrong and a tail to chase for years to come!

I deleted my Tapatalk ap, so here’s a picture if anyone’s curious.

What are you drinking right now?