Hi! I am intrigued about how beers like yeti imperial stout and the greenflash ryepa aniversary beer (for example) have a pleasant, smooth and delicious sweet malty start and then a big punch of hoppy flavor and bitterness at the end, i havent used maris otter malt and also dont know how it taste. But, am i correct if those beers, specially yeti uses that base malt to produce those flavors? what else can be? I made my beers with only american 2row and seldom pale ale but obviously dont have the same flavor as those beers.
Not sure about the RyePa, but the Great divide website does not mention anything about marris otter. it’s pretty easy to get big smooth malty-ness from a stout though.
Never underestimate Munich malt and very dark crystal malts for color and malty smoothness. You can reduce possible harsh burnt notes by cold steeping some or all of your roasted grain as well.
You can accentuate malty-ness to some extent with calcium chloride but too much becomes noticeable.
big hop flavor punches come from lots of late hops, last 5 minutes of the boil all the way into the whirlpool. smooth hop bitterness comes with paying attention to your beta acids and choosing a high alpha hop variety so you don’t have to use as much. Some varieties will lend a smoother bitterness than others.
I don’t think you’ll see MO in an imperial stout because the flavor easily gets lost beneath all those dark specialty malts. MO has a biscuity, sweet flavor. It’s sort of like two row with a little biscuit malt and a hint of munich malt.
I do use MO in porters because I like the slight biscuit and sweetness from the malt instead of using small amounts of biscuit and munich malt to make up those flavors, but my porters are not as loaded with specialty malts as an imperial stout.
I could well be mistaken or misunderstanding things here but as I understand it the beta acids will also provide bitterness but they tend to be the harsher more astringent bitterness. so if you can get a variety with very high alpha so you don’t have to use as much to get your desired bitterness, and low beta you can minimize the harshness or bite.
I am always open to being correct though so if others have a different understanding…
Beta acids provide some bitterness but are not as soluble as alpha acids. The bitterness from the beta-acids are from oxidation, which produces bitter tasting compounds. These compounds tend to be more of a harsh bitter than the isomerized alpha acids. While alpha acids degrade and the bitterness fades, beta-acids oxidize keeping the bitterness over a longer period of time. I also could be wrong but thats what I remember from somewhere.
Maris otter does not provide a “malty backbone” per say. It is more “biscuity”, like English “biscuits”. Yes, there is some malt character, obviously. But if you want malt flavor you might look to Munich and Vienna styles of malt. Moderate doses of lighter 10-40 L also provide some malt characteristics. Higher loco bond levels will be more raisin like.
I dont have access to MO, thats why i am asking, thanks for your comments!
And that great smooth bitterness that you feel at the end when you taste yeti, how do you do that? because its not hoppy aroma. I was thinking it 40% of my hop bill at FWH and 60% at 60 minutes. Also adjusting my water salts to enhance maltiness…what do you think?
If you want to taste what MO tastes like, find some Low Color MO. Only about 2L, and not biscuity. Have had some summer ales in London made with that, and there is a good malt flavor.
try it out and see. it’ll be beer probably. I like to favor the FWH over 60 minute but some at 60 really does provide a more solid bitterness than FWH alone. for cure choose a bittering hop that is known for smooth bitterness. I like Bravo and Magnum. I just did one using some centennial as bittering addition and that’s a nice smooth bitterness.
I have not had Yeti so I can’t speak. flaked barley can add a lot of mouthfeel which might help accentuate smoothness. This coupled with a really present bitterness might get you there.
Yeti is a great beer, and Great Divide makes many versions of it and they are all really good! I don’t have the recipe in front of me, but a friend of mine put together an imperial stout that tastes very similar to Yeti. No MO and he used flaked barley and flaked rye to give it a smooth mouthfeel.
As for MO, I read somewhere, maybe on this board somewhere, that Drew Beechum (I think it was Drew) does or at one time used a ratio of 1/2 2-row and 1/2 MO as his base for many of his ales. I recently tried this and changed my APA recipe from all 2-row base to 1/2 2-row and 1/2 MO base. Really liked the results and I got more of a toasty flavor from the MO than biscuity. I now keep on hand a 50lb bag of MO along with 2-row as I’ll be using this 1/2 ratio of 2-row and MO as my base for my APAs, IPAs and Ambers. My wife really like our Amber from last year, which had a 2-row base, but we are going to brew up an all MO Amber for the fall soon.
I’m not sold on FWH being any different than a bittering addition.
If you’re noticing a sharp bitter/astringent flavor in your dark beers now, start by keeping sulfates levels low in your water and check mash/sparge pH. Watch your amount of total roasted grain - you can get too much roast, even in RIS.
Are you starting with RO water and adjusting from there? If so, just keep sulfates to a minimum. If you’re starting with tap water, you may have too much to begin with - just cut it with a little store-bought distilled. Keep an eye on your mash pH, and make sure it doesn’t get too high during the sparge.
Indeed i use RO and adjust my water as i want. However thanks for your advices Im just trying to figure how, when you taste yeti, you feel a firm and smooth bitterness at the end of the sip and not at the very beggining… how do you accomplish that?
My black lager has that flavor you describe. I used Pacific Jade for bittering. It’s a low cohumulone variety that gives a fantastic, smooth bitterness. I might be making stuff up, but I think that bitter bite at the end actually comes more from the grain.
Im just trying to figure how, when you taste yeti, you feel a firm and smooth bitterness at the end of the sip and not at the very beggining… how do you accomplish that?