I have several questions about brewing old style Bavarian Lager!
Is Marzen and Bock the same type of Lager?
What are good references to study for all-grain brewing of Lager?
Charles
Dunkel is more than likely what is being referred to.
Bavarian Helles by Horst Dornbusch might be a good place to start though I dont know if he covers Dunkel in that book or not.
Nope, not even in the same ballpark.
Ok,
Oktoberfest and Marzen are similar? The time of year that the Lager is brewed!
Bock = strong Lager?
Helles = pale Lager?
Dunkel = dark Lager?
I want to brew the copper colored, cream like taste or feel Lager.
Charles
You kind of have the above correct. A Bock is a strong dark lager, except for in the case of a Maibock or Hellesbock.
Whenyou say “Old Style” Bavarian Lager then you say “colored” it remind me of an Alt (literally “old” in German. Of course, it is neithe rin Bavaria nor is it a true lager - rather it is an ale that undergoes a lagering process.
The other thing that may fit your criteria even better is what I mentioned above - a Maibock or Hellesbock. These care higher gravity, pale lagers that fit your description fairly well.
High highly recommend checking out the style guides at http://www.bjcp.org/stylecenter.php to get an idea what style is what.
Dunkel is thought to be the “original” German lager. It is copper colored but I don’t know if I’d call it (or any German lager) creamy, except for the head. The malt character of a dunkel is quite different from a maerzen or a bock. The maerzen and bock have a similar toasted malt flavor, with the bock having very rich malt flavors and balanced with more bitterness. I find the dunkel to have more bready characters and some even bordering on pumpernickel-like.
There is a local brewery that brews a pale lager, amber lager and a bock beer, “Red Oak Brewery”, redoakbrewery.com.
I enjoy the “Battlefield Bock”, but the “Red Oak Amber Lager” is unbelievable, smooth and clear but packs a punch!
I would like to brew a similar beer like the “Red Oak Amber Lager”. How can I determine if it is a Bock Lager, Marzen/Oktoberfest or a traditional Amber Lager. It’s confusing because it is smooth, filling and clear but packs that punch.
Charles
Why don’t you ask them what style it is modeled after and what ingredients they use? They may be willing to share some general info with you.
I called and asked them, they replied that it is an Amber Lager.
I’m confused, the beer is bread like filling, smooth and clear, copper in color and strong.
Maybe I should try to brew a Bock.
Charles
amber lager says vienna/marzen/oktoberfest to me.
Well, regardless what you plan on brewing you need to understand the complexities behind brewing a lager. You need to pitch a lot of healthy yeast. You need to be able to chill the wort down to at least the low 50’s high 40s before pitching and you need to maintain very constant temps in the high 40s/very low 50s. If you can manage to do that you can make a lager. If not I would recommend sticking to ales. See the pitching calc at www.mrmalty.com to get an idea what size yeast starter you will need. Be sure to use the lager pull down menu.
And, again, check the link to the style guid on the bjcp website I mentioned above to get an idea what style fits your description.
+1
complex malt/toast = vienna/marzen
but not breadlike or strong.
Bread crusts fall into a dunkel profile.
Rail,
RedOak is a Marzen style lager as mentioned above by Blatz. I have attempted to get some recipe help from the brewer on a couple of occasions but he is less than forthcoming with details. I developed a clone recipe that is fairly close, but it is not exact. It is 100% Munich malt (I use Weyermann but any continental light Munich malt will work) and it is hopped with Spalt hops. My best guess is around 25-30 IBU’s with a small flavor addition around the 10-15 minute mark. I ferment with Wyeast 2124 Bohemian Lager but any clean German lager yeast will work. I tried S-189 dry lager yeast but it did not replicate the flavor of the original beer very well so I wouldn’t recommend it.
I’m not sure how much experience you have brewing lagers. If this is your first, search some of majorvices posts for a primer on the correct way to brew a lager style beer. His way is not the only way, but it works very well and you will be pleased with the results.
Thanks for answering my questions! I have three books I reference too, but the Lager process is “vague”. Dave Miller’s: Homebrewing Guide; Palmer: How To Brew; Papazian: Complete Joy of Brewing.
I ordered Gregory Noonan’s book: New Brewing Lager Beer, is this a good reference for the Lager brewing?
What is a lager pull down menu?
What type of fridge or freezer should I use in the process. Should I use stainless or copper to brew in ( I am a metal spinner and shaper, welder ) I can fabricate what I need.
I am a traditionalist, want to do things right, I ask a lot of question to learn! Thank You for the help!
Charles
Miller’s book is so far out of date that I’d just skip it. Palmer’s is excellent and kind of considered the “bible” of contemporary homebrewing. Papazian has a great, friendly writing style and is generally good, but Palmer should be all you need. Noonan’s book is very technical and aimed more at commercial brewing that homebrewers, really. And be sure to pay attention to what majorvices posted. Lager brewing takes more skill, equipment and time than ale brewing, so it may not be what you want to jump into to begin brewing.
Looking through the BJCP Style Guideline, is Marzen/Oktoberfest a Traditional Bock or Dark Lager?
it’s European amber lager 3b
Marzen/Oktoberfest are the same with slight variations?
Vienna: creamy and smooth, with slightly less ABV than Marzen?
Charles
To be fair, a märzen/oktoberfest is a fair amount stronger than, say, bud light. i have known people who drink PBR when they want something “strong” because it is higher in alcohol than coors light.
I also think of a märzen as rather creamy for a lager… i would say he should shoot for a 1.055ish Oktoberfest… or maybe just something similar with an ale yeast.
Strong is a relative term. To me strong implies that there is evidence of alcohol in the aftertaste which is not the case for European Amber Lagers. They start in the 1.046-1.057 and ABV’s in the 4.4-5.7% range. Marzen’s are smooth, clean and rather rich with a complex malt character.