I tried a few hefeweizen beers early in my craft beer journey and wrote them off. I tried a local ish hefeweizen today and loved it . Susquehanna so wheat is the beer. Very little banana which is what turned me off. Any advice on brewing a low banana Weiss. Seems like wyeast 3638 is the way to go for yeast
Wyeast 3068 held around 65-66F holds the excess banana in check, and enhances the clove character IME. Not a big fan of the banana bomb hefes either. $0.02 .
I love 3638. Pitch on the low side (1 smack pack/no starter for 5 gallons of a typical gravity hefe), and ferment in the mid-60’s. That will give you low banana, and a nice sweet-spice phenolic note (not just clove, but hints of vanilla/anise/cinnamon). It works even better in a dunkelweizen, in my opinion, but still makes a real nice hefe.
I will 2nd the 3068, get it as fresh as you can or make a small starter. Id hold it at 65F for the little amount of banana. Dough in at 110F and hold for 10-15m before you jump to your next temp to get your 4vg working.
I will always love weissbier for the drinkability, but I can say adding fruit to a 3068 beer is really really good. I make a lemon drop fo-shandy with a 60/20/20 wheat/pils/munich light and mandarina and lemon drop ~15IBUs and dryhopped with lemon drop. Have not met a hefe-hater that didn’t like it yet.
*Edit if you get the chance, try WLP351 and hold at 62F and finish high.
Over pitching WY 3068 and fermenting cool will result in reduced banana and distinct clove flavor. Under pitching stresses the yeast and then combined with a high fermentation temperature results in the over the top banana.
I only care for some banana when it is the background.
You need a high (meaning not acidified in any way) pH and at least 30 minutes for anything to really happen… FYI.
That’s right, not insanely high, 5.7-8 then acidify your mash after the acid rest. Which a Munich water profile should be pretty easy to get that ballpark at the start of your mash. However, correct me if I am wrong, I believe it takes at least long enough for 4VG to develop before the pH actually drops to an ideal pH range for mashing if you are not using acid.
that’s why it’s called an acid rest.
Thats a kind of a misnomer. The mash would spoil before you brought the acid down enough to make it beneficial.
Even overnight is not enough.
Which would or would not be in the acceptable pH range for 4VG between 108-113F for 10 minutes?
I think yes, but then again it wouldn’t be the first time I was wrong.
No acid in the mash would make the rest good in the proper pH range, and you could rest there for 10 minutes (albeit 10 minutes isn’t going to do much for you). IF you are looking for a clove expression mash at 114 for about 30-60 minutes with no acid in the mash. IF you are feeling froggy I have the hefeweiss bier holy grail mash handy.
I would give some FRESH german examples a try, if you can get Weihenstephaner look at the bottle codes and find a fresh one. I am kind of in the same boat. I am a pale lager kind of guy, but zee Germans just do it so perfect its hard to argue. I brew my fair share of them, the last one I did in particular was outstanding.
I enjoy the full range of hefeweizen, from banana to clove and somewhere in between. But I’ve stopped making the style (and dunkleweizen) because I can’t drink it fast enough for the flavor to remain fresh. I realize that making smaller batches would help, but for now I’ve decided that this is one style of beer I’ll just buy when I’m at a restaurant or pub.
It doesn’t have to be that way!
not sure I’m understanding you. I’v edone overnight kettle sour rests at ~110 that ended at pH 3.8. granted the mash was manipulated to provide the correct pH to start with and I couldn’t tell you at what point it had dropped the 2 points you are looking at here, but Lactic bacteria can work pretty fast at optimum temps
I’m with you, experience and the texts I have say otherwise. I don’t have the time to pull a snipit, but the acid rest does stabilise the mash pH, 10-15minutes is plenty of time for 4VG to develop, and I have been doing it that way for a year with flawless balance of clove and banana. Previously my beers where banana bombs, they were drinkable, but lacked that balance and complexity.
When done right, weissbier should be as drinkable as a pils, but complex enough to showcase the Noblility of the style. Dont forget this was not a peasant beer…
“Character of wheat beers
As a result of the typical aroma components
which are formed by wheat beer yeast, these
beers also have typical aroma impressions
which differ considerably from bottom
fermenting beers [201]:
The typical wheat beer aroma is mainly influenced
by 4-vinyl-guaiacol (0.2-3.2 ppm,
mean value 0.5-0.7 ppm), whose flavour in
large quantities fits into higher alcohols and
esters (flavour threshold 0.7 mg/I).
The formation of 4-vinly-guaiacol (clove
aroma) is aided by
• low mashing-in temperatures,
• long 45 °C rest,
• a mash pH of 5.7 - 5.8, no mash acidification,
• at least 40 % part barley malt,
• the strain of yeast,
• fermentation temperatures of 20-24 °C,
• one or two yeast cycles and
• early harvesting of the yeast.”
The gold standard Hefeweiss mash is the maltase mash. Which features a 45c rest for ~60 minutes. After the 60 minutes the mash pH is still above 5.7.
Duration of 45 °( rest (min) Aroma impression
0 10 25
phenolic 1.2 2.1 3.3
estery 4.1 3.4 2.6
yeasty 1.8 2.6 2.8
A rest of at least 10- 15 minutes should be
observed to achieve a clear phenolic aroma
Mash acidification suppresses the release of the
ferulic acid and thus the formation of 4-viny~
guaiacol. On the other hand, an extended 45c
rest reduces the occurrence of an estery aroma.
Some of that information is either mistyped or falsely reported. Ferulic acid takes far less time to be created in the 113F than 1 hour.
Reported test of 45C ferulic acid test
5.6mg/L @ 15m
6.6mg/L @ 30m
6.8mg/L @ 60m
-Eddie Collins & ibd.org
Likewise a 4VGmg/L end of fermentation
0.57mg/L @ 15m
0.62mg/L @ 30m
0.62mg/L @ 60m
Sorry, thats Kunze, and I believe him over anyone else you have! 
Doesn’t mean the measured values or levels are wrong. To disprove the reported values you would have to discredit it with measured values…
So would Kunze. And just because ‘he’ reported it, doesn’t mean he was testing the values himself.
Also, I’m not saying he’s not an authority in the industry but he’s not without flaw.