I thought the same, but I found a quote from Kai while reading threads this morning. From another thread Kai started:
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2012, 02:55:20 PM »
Quote
I think the cold conditioning portion of lager brewing is less important that we think. I also think it makes a difference, but it’s easy to get away without it. Currently both my freezer chests are broken and I’ll have to get away w/o properly “lagering” my Schwarzbier. At least it’s winter and my basement is at ~60 F
Kai
So, I asked “the Germans” what they thought the secret to “German lager flavor” is. The consensus was to ferment under 10C, lager at 0C (for 5+ weeks), pitch a lot of yeast, if possible. Some said Pilsen-type water was fine, some suggested harder water would help.
I told them that I use decoction mashes, and they assumed I didn’t know what I was saying, apparently because decoction mashing is insane. German homebrewers step-mash everything, but as far as I can tell, they never use decoctions. Some think of decoction as a sort of old-fashioned gimmick to sell beer.
Here’s one response I found interesting (my translation, from http://hobbybrauer.de/modules.php?name=eBoard&file=viewthread&tid=16789)
Decoction mashing came from Bavaria. In the 19th century, Anton Dreher of Schwechat (near Vienna) invented lager beer as it is known today. He traveled to England, which was at that time the leader in malting, and brought their techniques to Schwechat. He was also influenced by Gabriel Sedlmeyer, from Munich, with whom he worked closely. Also from Bavaria was Joseph Groll. He went to Pilsen, in Bohemia, and invented Pilsner Urquell. That beer was brewed with Bavarian decoction.
We have these three legendary brewers to thank for the triumph of lager in Germany, and later the world. Lager soon spread and replaced many varied types of beer in Germany. Before this, Germany had a lively brewing industry, with a great diversity of ales. Because of lager, the majority of those ales are now extinct.
The decoction procedure was very popular in the 19th century. Today, decoction is long gone. Almost every brewer uses direct heat. They instead use kettle mashing (direct heat) or hot water infusion. Usually they use the high-short process (hochkurz) because time is money.
In Bohemia/Czech Republic decoction is still popular. Pilsner Urquell is supposedly brewed using the original recipe from Joseph Groll.
In Germany, only a few old, traditional breweries use the expensive decoction process for their flagship products. This is more or less for prestige, to compete in the difficult German beer market. For example, the Andechser Doppelbock Dunkel. It is brewed with a triple-decoction. A beautifully aromatic Doppelbock, is it therefore in the “Top 100” beers on Ratebeer.
The small craft breweries in Germany also try to preserve the old brewing processes. The large breweries copy these beers, and make them in a cost-effective manner. [I’m not sure I translated that correctly, I’m not sure if the big brewers copy the craft brewers, or vice versa. “Die kopieren auch nur die Großen um einigermassen kostengünstig produzieren zu können.”]
I had a great decocted beer last year at the Kommunbrauern in Ummerstadt. The small brewhouse was built in the 19th century, and has since been preserved by the locals. The mash was boiled for 90 minutes. The wort was boiled for 5 hours. That beer was awesome, crisp and malty, without much carbonation.
So, it is still there, that “old lager flavor,” but you must look with a magnifying glass to find it.
Here’s a video of Brauerei Ummerstadt (German not required, but it helps): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYm-LoothK0
Thanks for posting, nateo. That was an interesting read. I used to decoct a lot of my German lagers. I stopped doing that last summer, opting for single-infusion mashes instead.
Any difference? I did a Vienna a couple weeks back, just an infusion. Will see what I think in a few months.
Well, I haven’t done a side-by-side tasting or anything like that, but I don’t notice anything lacking in the single infusion lagers. My decocted beers were very good, but I don’t think the single infusion beers taste much different, if at all.
Nice Video. Thank you.
One of the things I’ve learned, talking to German people, is that “Germany” is kind of an abstract concept, while the historically independent regions (Bavaria, Thuringia, Saxony, Franconia, etc) are very much still how Germans think about their country. “Germany” is a fairly recent invention, so “German” lager flavor is a bit of a misnomer.
Deutschland is how they think of it. Germany is what we call it.
Of course, the Franconians will tell you they are not really Bavarian.
A German woman challenged me when I said there was a German beer that had banana and clove flavors. I told her it was common to Bavaria, and she said something like “Oh, that’s Bavaria, you said German”.
Gee thanks Nate! ;) Now I have to follow yet one more brewing forum, only it’s in German! Actually that site looks really interesting and I’m going to have to spend some time there…
-red
The Vienna recipe I use (it started as a Negro Modelo clone from one of the Szamatulski [sp?] books but I’ve tweaked it over a few years) has just a single infusion at 150F; I’ve been quite happy with it over 4 or 5 batches…
-red
That’s funny. What’s the deal with wanting to separate everything? Bavaria is somehow not German, to her? It’s a region of Germany, yes? Like saying West Coast or Cascadia is not American? Guess I don’t get it since I don’t live there.
“Germany” was a bunch of mostly autonomous kingdoms for thousands of years. The smaller kindgoms were usually getting squeezed by Prussia and Austria, as both jockeyed for power. Modern Germany was mostly formed in the late 19th century. Even then, as part of the German Empire, Bavaria was still a semi-independent monarchy with their own army, until around 1920.
So, Bavaria is a tiny little bit like Texas, although they were independent for a much longer time. I don’t want to get all political or anything, but there are some people in Texas who are Texans first, Americans second, who want to secede, and there are Bavarians who want to secede as well. I’ve also heard people say the west coast isn’t “real America” so the sentiment isn’t unusual. Whether you agree with it or not, it exists.
Thanks for the insight, I didn’t know that. And knowing is half the battle!
In America, we’re really spoiled. Our history is basically just Pilgrims > Revolution > Civil War > WW2 > Berlin Wall. European history is so much more complicated.
Great link and info Nate! This has been a great thread.
I recently met through friends and became friends with a “German”. Big dude with an even bigger German accent. We constantly talk about beer. His common argument is how much different German Lagers taste in Germany versus here in the US. They have that “German Lager Flavor” not found in the beer here. This being the case, I was very proud when he tasted mine and told me it was as close to home as he’s ever tasted here in the US. Not sure why just yet, but it was one of my best which I have now been able to reproduce several times.
He just emailed me this morning as he was home for the holidays and brought back 6 different types of German beer for us to compare against their US counterparts. I can’t wait and will report back our findings. I plan to print out some BJCP scoresheets and take copious notes. I’m hoping to try and pick out where we may be falling short in comparison to the German originals.
Dave
I found a bottle of a blonde ale I brewed with K-97. I kinda forgot about it. It’s been “lagering” on my porch since Thanksgiving. I’m not really sure what happened, but it’s crystal clear and had more “German lager flavor” than the last lager I brewed. The last month or so, the low has been around 23*F, a few days it got up to the 60s, but it’s been otherwise pretty cold.
I suspect if the beer isn’t almost freezing, I’m not lagering it cold enough. I’m usually lagering around 36-40*F.
Well, what temp are the “Germans” lagering it at? Traditionally it wouldn’t have been lower than cold cave temps, maybe in the low 40’s. Then again they were letting it sit at that temp for a long time. But I don’t know what the current practice is.
I imagine modern brewers aren’t using caves anymore. IIRC, in one of the brewing network interviews, Charlie Bamforth mentioned cold crashing the finished beer down to slush (or right above slush, I’m not sure.) I do remember him saying something like 1 day at 28* was better than 2 weeks at 32*, flavor-wise.
Yeah, I remember that interview. Basically it’s a function of time and temperature. Lower temp, less time. Probably don’t want slush though. Right above it is probably optimal.