Yeast Nutrient

[brewark]

Definitely need it for Mead Day. (& a week after that, & a week after that)

[denny]

@flbrewer

Does anyone use it? Just realized I had some lying around.

Yep, both in starters and the boil.  Cheap insurance.

[stbloomfield_gmail.com (ccfoo242)]

I wonder if I use too much. The bag always says 1tsp per gallon of wort. Seems like all of you use much less than that.

Is it the BSG stuff?

Yes. I ran out recently and lhbs didn’t have any so I bought White Labs servomyces.

[stbloomfield_gmail.com (ccfoo242)]

LOL Carlson and BSG both say 1 tsp per gallon. But now that I think about it shouldn’t it vary by wort gravity also? Maybe they just want me to use a lot so I buy more.

What’s the side effect of too much nutrient?

[charles1968]

LOL Carlson and BSG both say 1 tsp per gallon. But now that I think about it shouldn’t it vary by wort gravity also? Maybe they just want me to use a lot so I buy more.

What’s the side effect of too much nutrient?

More fusel alcohols and more spoilage organisms, particularly bacteria. Yeast nutrient also has a very strong flavour so aim to keep the quantity under taste threshold. Not sure what that is though. Not a problem if you only use it in starters.

The most important compounds are those containing nitrogen in a form yeast can convert into protein to build new cells. There’s plenty of free nitrogen in wort already. Much less in fruit juice and honey, which is why nutrient is important in making wine and mead.

Don’t believe anything you read on forums about excess nutrient dropping out in the sediment as it won’t - it’s soluble.

[dmtaylor (Dave Taylor)]

I use nutrient for beers with finicky yeasts (Belgians jump to mind) or when fermentation gets stuck.  For cider and mead where I want to keep fermentation as slow and controllable as possible to maintain sweetness, I never use nutrient.  I promise it makes great beverages with no nutrient required.  These latter fermentations never get stuck for me, so in my view any reasons for using it are defeated.

[majorvices]

Funny. It seems that the yeast nutrient question comes up every now and then and whatever the first couple of people say gains momentum. I’m pretty sure last time the consensus was it was unnecessary and those who used it didn’t know if it makes a difference. I use servomyces capsules in the boil for big beers and an organic nutrient for mead and cider.
Xbeeriment?

I was an off and on user until about 5 years ago. I use every batch now. FTR: The dosage according to WYEAST for their nutrient is 11 grams per bbl.

[pete_baker (pete b)]

@dmtaylor

I use nutrient for beers with finicky yeasts (Belgians jump to mind) or when fermentation gets stuck.  For cider and mead where I want to keep fermentation as slow and controllable as possible to maintain sweetness, I never use nutrient.  I promise it makes great beverages with no nutrient required.  These latter fermentations never get stuck for me, so in my view any reasons for using it are defeated.

I have made lots of melomels and a few ciders with no nutrient and never a stuck fermentation or evidence of sulphur in the finished product. I do a long, warm secondary with meads and don’t drink them young. I use nutrients with mead now out of fear and curiosity.

[hopfenundmalz]

After this presentation, I started using nutrients. There was discussion of Zinc in here, and also in a presentation by MaryBeth Raines.

http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2009/Tobias-Fischborn-NHC2009-Yeast%20nutrition.pdf

I hope this helps.

[stbloomfield_gmail.com (ccfoo242)]

@hopfenundmalz

After this presentation, I started using nutrients. There was discussion of Zinc in here, and also in a presentation by MaryBeth Raines.

http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2009/Tobias-Fischborn-NHC2009-Yeast%20nutrition.pdf

I hope this helps.

Nice.

The BSG nutrient I usually use is the kind with a lot of dead yeast cells in it, I think. Certainly smells yeasty.

[charles1968]

@hopfenundmalz

After this presentation, I started using nutrients. There was discussion of Zinc in here, and also in a presentation by MaryBeth Raines.

http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2009/Tobias-Fischborn-NHC2009-Yeast%20nutrition.pdf

I hope this helps.

Interesting presentation. There does seem to be a case for adding nutrients such as zinc to high gravity beers, beers made with fussy yeasts, and maybe lagers. I’m not convinced about free nitrogen. Malt contains a lot of amino acids. If the yeast has to work a bit harder to get it, and that slows down fermentation a little, that may be no bad thing. Stimulating faster fermentation in normal wort isn’t necessarily a good idea.

[jonhughey_att.net (HoosierBrew)]

@charles1968

If the yeast has to work a bit harder to get it, and that slows down fermentation a little, that may be no bad thing. Stimulating faster fermentation in normal wort isn’t necessarily a good idea.

I don’t know. Getting a strong, quick start to out-compete potential microbes and not stressing your yeast to take in enough nutrients by giving them the nutrients abundantly seem to be solid yeast practices to me. Many strains are known to throw higher levels of esters and off flavors/aromas when stressed. To each his own.

EDIT - Not saying you can’t make good beer without nutrient - of course you can, especially on an average strength beer. But there’s an abundance of info (NHC presentation included) that adding nutrient is beneficial for yeast.

[charles1968]

@charles1968

If the yeast has to work a bit harder to get it, and that slows down fermentation a little, that may be no bad thing. Stimulating faster fermentation in normal wort isn’t necessarily a good idea.

I don’t know. Getting a strong, quick start to out-compete potential microbes and not stressing your yeast to take in enough nutrients by giving them the nutrients abundantly seem to be solid yeast practices to me. Many strains are known to throw higher levels of esters and off flavors/aromas when stressed. To each his own.

EDIT - Not saying you can’t make good beer without nutrient - of course you can, especially on an average strength beer. But there’s an abundance of info (NHC presentation included) that adding nutrient is beneficial for yeast.

Raising the temperature also gets yeast off to a good start but that doesn’t make it necessarily good practice. Given the choice, yeast would rather ferment at 90F or more, but good beer is made by keeping activity restrained. Slow and steady is better than fast and furious.

[charles1968]

Here’s a relevant page from Yeast by Chris White and Jamil Zainasheff:

An all-malt wort contains all the nutrients yeast need for fermentation except oxygen and zinc. Adjuncts such as corn, rice, or sugar syrups do not contain many essential nutrients such as nitrogen, minerals, and vitamins. Even with all-malt worts, brewers may find advantage in adding nutrients to improve and fine tune fermentation performance. Several yeast nutrient products available provide a balanced source of nitrogen, minerals, and vitamins. Brewers can also add specific nutrients individually, but keep in mind that excessive amounts of nutrients can also cause problems. Your goal is to find the optimal balance for your fermentation conditions.

Nitrogen makes up about 10 percent of the dry weight of yeast cells. The nitrogen in brewer’s wort is mostly in the form of amino acids. There are twenty different types of amino acids, and yeast can either make the amino acids they need or assimilate them from the wort. Both wort amino acids and inorganic nitrogen supplements affect flavor, which may be good or bad depending on your goals.

Similar to how yeast approach different sugars, yeast assimilate and utilize wort amino acids as rapidly and efficiently as possible. Yeast take up and utilize some wort amino acids (Group A) within the first day, while others (Group B) are taken up gradually throughout fermentation. Yeast do not take up some others (Group C) until after a substantial lag. And yeast do not utilize the most abundant amino acid in wort, proline (Group D ), at all. The specificity of permeases that transport amino acids across the plasma membrane control the utilization rates. The fastest way for yeast to utilize nitrogen is through transamination. In this process, a donor amino acid gives up its alpha-amino nitrogen to the keto acid to form the desired amino acid. Therefore, for the most part, wort amino acids are converted to alpha-keto acids. This is why yeast do not utilize proline, because it is the one amino acid where the alpha-amino group is a secondary amine (bound to two carbons) and cannot be transaminated.

This process has profound implications for flavor. The alpha-keto acids formed are decarboxylated to form an aldehyde, which is subsequently reduced to alcohol, and this is the source of fusel alcohols. This is why amino acid supplements can affect the quantity and type of fusel alcohol formed. In addition, changes in the fusel alcohol profile affect the ester profile. This is one reason why amino acid supplements are not necessarily superior to inorganic nitrogen.

[charles1968]

This is from Mary Beth Raine’s article:

The addition of yeast nutrients and certain salts can also improve yeast growth and are a worthwhile addition to starters.  Yeast nutrients usually are of two types, one which is ammonium phosphate-based, and the other which is amino acid/peptide and vitamin-based (similar to the peptone and yeast extract in the laboratory media described below).  Both serve the same basic function which is to increase the nitrogen content of the wort and yeast.  A mixture of different nitrogen sources have been shown to enhance both growth and fermentation and suggest that the amino acid/peptide-based nutrients may be more appropriate than diammonium phosphate.  Also rapidly growing yeast such as those in starters have a higher than normal nitrogen requirement.  Thus starter worts should be supplemented with yeast nutrients so that nitrogen is not limiting.

Ammonium phosphate-based nutrients impart very little to the flavor profile.  The same is not true of the amino acid based extracts which tend to impart an autolyzed flavor (bloody, bouillon-like, and metallic) if used in excess (greater than a Tablespoon per 5 gallons).  Thus amino-acid based nutrients should be used sparingly (if at all) in the fermenter.  This is an important consideration when making meads since honey is very low in nitrogen and delicate in flavor.  Therefore diammonium phosphate is the preferred nutrient in meads although a small amount of the vitamin/amino acid-based extract should be added ( 1 tsp) to provide additional vitamins and minerals.

We have recently tested the effects of a variety of food-grade amino acid/peptide-based nutrients on yeast growth (Figure 2).  These experiments indicate that the addition of certain yeast nutrients (especially nutrients #3 and 4) can increase the rate of yeast growth but not the overall concentration or yield of yeast.  Thus the addition of yeast nutrient to starters can help accelerate their growth.  This is important for homebrewers since we rarely sterilize our worts and rapid growth is necessary for the yeast to take it over the starter before any potential bacteria can grow.  Unlike the fermenting beer,  yeast nutrients can be added at relatively high concentrations (1% or about 1/4 tsp per quart) to starters since flavor is not an issue. If you are worried about the flavor of the starter contributing to your beer flavor, you can always let the yeast settle and decant off the majority of the liquid.

[hopfenundmalz]

There are the stories one hears about the all SS breweries in Germany, that have a section of Zinc piping.

As far as fermentation speed goes, my lager fermentation times now that I use nutrients, proper pitch rates and O2, are in the 5-6 day range, which is what the 2 German Brewers I talked to on the respective tours said they experience. Whenever I read of a Homebrewer doing a standard lager, and the fermentation has been going on for 2 weeks, well I try and help.

[charles1968]

@hopfenundmalz

There are the stories one hears about the all SS breweries in Germany, that have a section of Zinc piping.

As far as fermentation speed goes, my lager fermentation times now that I use nutrients, proper pitch rates and O2, are in the 5-6 day range, which is what the 2 German Brewers I talked to on the respective tours said they experience. Whenever I read of a Homebrewer doing a standard lager, and the fermentation has been going on for 2 weeks, well I try and help.

Lagers do need a bit of an extra push.

[charles1968]

Another long but hopefully interesting quote, this time from the Wikipedia entry on “yeast assimilable nitrogen”

Yeast assimilable nitrogen or YAN is the combination of Free Amino Nitrogen (FAN), ammonia (NH3) and ammonium (NH4+) that is available for the wine yeast Saccharomyces cerevisiae to use during fermentation. Outside of the fermentable sugars glucose and fructose, nitrogen is the most important nutrient needed to carry out a successful fermentation that doesn’t end prior to the intended point of dryness or sees the development of off-odors and related wine faults. To this extent winemakers will often supplement the available YAN resources with nitrogen additives such as diammonium phosphate (DAP).[1]

However, the addition of excessive amounts of nitrogen can also create a hazard as other organisms besides beneficial wine yeast can utilize the nutrients. These include spoilage organisms such as Brettanomyces, Acetobacter and Lactic acid bacteria from the Lactobacillus and Pediococcus genera. This is why many wineries will measure the YAN after harvest and crushing using one of several methods available today including the nitrogen by o-phthaldialdehyde assay (NOPA) which requires the use of a spectrometer or the Formol titration method. Knowing the YAN in the must allows winemakers to calculate the right amount of additive needed to get through fermentation, leaving only “nutrient desert” for any spoilage organisms that come afterwards.[2]

[jonhughey_att.net (HoosierBrew)]

@charles1968

Raising the temperature also gets yeast off to a good start but that doesn’t make it necessarily good practice. Given the choice, yeast would rather ferment at 90F or more, but good beer is made by keeping activity restrained. Slow and steady is better than fast and furious.

Well of course fermenting @ 90F is a bad practice !  Using proper temp control (and therefore controlling yeast derived off flavors/aromas) has zero in common with trying to restrain yeast activity by not using nutrient. I don’t propose using more than the amount recommended by Wyeast, or that you use it at all for that matter. Just saying that there is evidence posted by others in the field (NHC presentation posted) that nutrient can be beneficial in limiting sulfur and for general yeast health and performance. YMMV.

[charles1968]

Agreed. I think there are pros and cons to using it in the main wort but it’s clearly handy for starters.