Agreed. Bready, bready, bready. I’ve made the same Kolsch both ways, one Vienna and one Cologne. For a subtle style they were significantly different. The one with the Cologne malt was the clear winner, trust me. 
I might bump it to 10-15% for Helles as you’ve mentioned.
Thanks for the info, man! With the grists being so similar for me (kolsch and helles), I want to brew both styles using kolsch malt. This forum rocks.
on the hops also- Kai (Braukaiser) says Weihenstephaner Original use Perle for bittering and Hallertauer for aroma additions. I’m going this route on this recipe as well-target IBU 21
My understanding is this: (And everything I am saying is a matter of opinion)
Might be “Missing” in your process is Decoction Mash will draw the Melanoidin flavor out of your Pils/Vienne/Melanoidin malt, failing to do this process wastes the grain. Debatable in many styles, however, in Munich Helles I think it is a must.
To read about that:
http://byo.com/hops/item/537-decoction-mashing-techniques And I def. think that it would require you to use a triple decoction mash to fully capture the “Helles flavor” out of your Pils and total grain bill.
The style does not carry Munich Malt. (weird right) Here is were It becomes strange, I understand that it is a Munich style, the original is said not to have munich malt. Crazy Right? So I am told/read that Munich Malt will muddle or muddy up the rich pilsner flavor, because it is delicate and can be overpowered. Pale ale malt is too thick on your palate and should not be used in the style. At least (so I read) no more than 3% of pale ale malt.
http://byo.com/mead/item/747-helles-style-profile for the nay say to Munich malt in the style.
So because of that, the only experience I have had was not my own beer, but a brew session with a friend that got me into the hobby.
We did this.
Grain
76.67% Pils
9.58% Vienne
2.92% Melanoidin
2.08% Carapils
1.25% Acid
1.25% Honey (arguably not a part of the style but overall flavor was on)
6.25% Candi Sugar (attempt of an Helles Export rather than the traditional)
So here in lies the argument for me: Yeast, and ABV for a Helles
So there is Helles, Helles Export, Spezial Helles, EdelHelles, Urhelles, Urtyphelles, etc… They all have subtle variations. Traditionally (I believe) Helles, Helles Export, Urhelles, and Urtyphelles did not included any Munich malts. They are only Pils. However the Spezial (Seasonal Breweries Best so to speak) may have included anything the brewery wanted to use that was in season. Edelhelles however was the noble variety of the style, or to remind the consumer of the “lofty, noble rank of the beer hops”
To read more on where I am getting all of that :
http://byo.com/mead/item/747-helles-style-profile
So Yeast to me was a big factor from what was used around that time frame, and what was popularly used in 1894. Which leans me to learn about Muller Thurgau who was able to isolate the single yeast cell for wine and beer fermentation. So probably multiple yeasts used to “Birth” the helles style. So it would be difficult to really match what breweries that have 100+years of tradition. So possibly a variety of Bavarian Yeasts were used, that were probably funky, fruity, bubblegum, clove, and dark spice characters.
With all of this being said, I think you have to brew to your taste. Trial and “error”, is just the excuse to tell your wife you gotta make another batch right?
Awesome post, thanks for sharing your progress! In my limited experience with helles I have found that melanoidin malt is really easy to overdo. I’d suggest keeping it to 1 - 1.5% of the grist.
For the yeast, I’m on a kick with 2206 at the moment and get a lot of that bagel type flavor from that yeast. I do have to wonder if getting super fresh malt may be the difference with the German breweries. We are always hearing how poorly hops handle travel and malt may experience the same type of problems to a lesser extent.
Let us know how your future trials go, helles is one of my favorite styles!
The original Munich beers were dark, Munich malt worked with the water. Late Helles was the answer to the Pilsner style beers that swept through Europe in the 1840s. Not crazy at all.
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The original Munich beers were dark, Munich malt worked with the water. Late Helles was the answer to the Pilsner style beers that swept through Europe in the 1840s. Not crazy at all.
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1894
The original Munich beers were dark, Munich malt worked with the water. Late Helles was the answer to the Pilsner style beers that swept through Europe in the 1840s. Not crazy at all.
[/quote]
1894
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Yeah later, Pilsners became popular after PU was introduced in 1842. Water chemistry was figured out in roughly the 1880s or so. Then they could brew light beers with the light malts.
Munich malt was for the beers they brewed in before Helles was invented.
To the OP: what a fantastic post! I’m on a similar quest. Re: the 100% pils grists, did you compare brands?
Hahaha, I like the your forum name!
After reading through this thread, I have finalized my munich helles recipe and will be brewing it sometime shortly after Xmas for some early spring comps coming up. I plan on going 84% Pilsner Malt (split 50/50 with German and Belgian pilsner malts) and 16% kolsch malt. Will keep everyone posted here. Thanks for the ideas!
Please do. I got my kolsch malt and have it queued up to do.
Me too, next weekend hopefully.
I’ll preface that you seem to have a lot more lager experience than me but I’d probably try softening up the water. From what I’ve heard lager’s don’t really need to hit the usual 50ppm Calcium target. I got away with a lot less in a Czech pils and it came out great. The next thing I’d probably do is check the final pH’s of the Helles I liked and compare it to mind but that’s mostly because that’s been something I’ve had on my mind a lot lately.
I’m going to try a recipe similar to one in Narziss book. Pils with 2-3% Carahell and .5-1% Caramunich I. A few people I know are going this route and I’m waiting to see they’re outcome before I fine tune my recipe.
grainbill from a Munich Helles recipe on the German homebrew site MaischeMalzundMehr
Pilsener Extra Hell: 3.7 kg (61.7%)
Helles Tennenmalz: 2 kg (33.3%)
Carahell: 0.3 kg (5%)
I think Tennenmalz is an heirloom variety of floor-malted malt made by Weyermann.
Tenne translated to threshing floor. If you look at their products auf Deutsch, you find that it is what we call the floor malted Bohemian malt.
http://www.weyermann.de/ger/gelbe_seiten.asp?snr=1&idkat=1144&umenue=yes&idmenue=2&sprache=1
English page
http://www.weyermann.de/eng/gelbe_Seiten_en.asp?snr=1&idkat=1146&umenue=yes&idmenue=37&sprache=2
In order to brew a proper helles(or any german beer for that matter), you have to pretty much unlearn everything American homebrewing has taught you.
The devil is in ALL the details, and if you think water, hops, malt and yeast are the details, you are SORELY mistaken.
That makes sense. What about pilsner extra light though? I haven’t come across that before.
But there must be many different varieties of Munich Helles, all using recipes and techniques that vary around a few core essential points. The key is finding out those essential points - not all the details, many of which might not matter so much.