It will also be too thin bodied, which will throw it even more out of balance.
Tips:
mash is wrong
Grain bill could be better
Water is wrong
pH is wrong
Hoping is wrong
But like stated, if you like it, thats all that matters. I’m far from the expert.
This topic is feeling like finding Keyser Söze :o
OR Perhaps finding the Holy Grail :
The last one was 145 for 90 min, Gambinus Vienna instead of Best, Ca from CaCl and SO4 instead of just SO4, and only Magnum at 60. The notes from several judges including too sweet, too dark, too much hop flavor, and a minerally note. Honey note came from Gambinus, extra 30 minutes ought to dry it a little more, no SO4 ought to drop the minerally note, and since a half ounce of magnum at 60 gave it too much flavor I figure if its going to have hop flavor it might as well be Mittelfruh.
Thanks for the help!
hmm. here’s my issue with this. when you tell someone they are wrong, there’s presumption you are right. if you are right (and hell if I know-you may be) then that illustrates being an expert or coming from a position of fact.
^^ This! This is all I am saying. None of us can brew an accurate Helles. I’ll be the first to admit it, and I’m on the quest to do it. And that’s ok…we don’t need to have the answer, we need to share knowledge and work together to figure it out. But first thing is admitting there’s a problem…there’s an element to it we don’t know. All good? Then let’s figure it out! When it’s said it’s not an easy style to brew, it doesn’t mean “I’ve brewed an APA that scored 40, I’ve graduated to brew Helles and can brew the next style on my sheet”. Brewing an accurate Helles means you’ve figured some stuff out. That’s cool…it’s quite an accomplishment to work towards. I wish people wouldn’t trivialize that.
I scored 44 in competition on a Helles that had 15 minute hop addition and, to me, tasted slightly mildly reminiscent of a Helles and had the merit that it was light in color. I wouldn’t use the standard every day BJCP competition as the litmus test for Helles. Really good judges who know the style are key. And in that case, a 10 minute addition can provide just the right accent and pass muster.
No, I am not the expert, claiming to be would only be a lie. However experts did write the rules, and those are what I based my answers on.
Here is my eternal debate. I have dedicated the better part of the last year, almost every free, waking moment to learn about this. This information does not come easy, its tireless work. I have a family, work, a life. Whats the price on that? Do I just give it all up for the sake of science? Would you even do it if I told you (i.e. would I be wasting my breath). My problem also involves me not fully being able to master it as well. Am I going down the wrong path, did I just steer you down the wrong path? I am hesitant, due to all the “paths” I have been put down.
As an outsider looking in it appears the perfect Munich Helles is not attainable. It is the unicorn of beers…
The must not have been judges named Wolfgang or Fritz [emoji12]
Agreed. I am not brewing this just to compete. But it might go. My last attempt had all of those problems I mentioned before, yet took 1st at the Bend Oregon COHO last June. Woo hoo, right? Comps are just fun fund raisers, not really a good test of your beer. Besides, there isnt a comp good enough to prove anything for homebrewers. It all can be argued away. Maybe if you entered WBC and beat all the old Munich breweries… but even then, there will be someone on the Internet brow beating you down. Bottom line, I dont brew to prove anything. Its just for fun. Having said that, continuing to try to come up with MY perfect German Malty Light Lager is fun too
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There are a good number of us out there who all know EXACTLY what each other means when we say a “German” flavor. If you know what it tastes like, you can pick it out in one sip.
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To be honest, I don’t even need to taste it to know. A smell is all that is needed.
A forum (be it internet or otherwise) is a place to exchange information. If you have information you would like to share then share it.
If you would like to sell this information maybe you should write a book. Brewer’s Association is always coming out with new stuff.
If you want to keep it to yourself, then please do that, but I would suggest not critiquing a recipe without some constructive criticism.
Agreed. My last one had some friends agreeing with me, and it was a 20 minute addition. Too hoppy according to the judges.
My point is that you will get judges most often who have only had bottled import versions, where the aroma has faded in the months from Germany to their glass. That is all they have for reference.
I won’t be in Munich anytime soon,but I will be drinking some Frankonian versions soon. Maybe a Paulaner at the Frankfurt airport high speed train station if that place is still there. 
Disclaimer - Never been to Germany (yet). I know quite a few pretty sharp beer people who have been to Germany and talked about the differences between helles from brewery to brewery, town to town. Zero hop flavor or aroma reported most often obviously, with a few helles showing slight hop flavor and/or aroma. Some maltier than others, some drier, slight color variations within reason, etc. In other words, at least some variation within the style.
My point and question is that, if we accept the premise that brewing helles on a par with the ones brewed in Germany is nearly impossible (and that might be the case), is this a generalized, across the board statement given brewery/regional differences in the style ? Or is it based on comparisons to what the helles experts consider to be one or two of their favorite helles beers in Germany? I consider my helles to be good and evolving, and I’m always looking to make it better. But I also completely agree with others that the setting you drink a beer in can’t help but influence your perception of it. Anybody honestly believe that drinking a beer in a Munich biergarten on a sunny day tastes EXACTLY the same as that same exact beer at home on your sofa ? If the extremes are ‘nearly impossible to brew an authentic one’ on one end and ‘setting affects perception’ on the other end, I’m betting the truth lies somewhere in between. Still want to make mine better.
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The ability to accurately describe “it” would sure be helful though. If you just write “lacking that German “IT” flavor and aroma” I’m afraid you’ll tune up a lot of brewers. Recognizing IT is only 1/25 of the job. [emoji6]
Yes there are differences. Augustiner München was my favorite in Munich. There were differences. Hofbrua was my least favorite, as it was grainy to me. Others have it as their favorite.
Then there are some very good Helles outside of Munich. Ayinger is very good. I must say that the Augustiner in Salzburg was as good or better than the one in München. I need to do another trip to get to Salzburg
The ingredient list is simple. The process is complex. A recipe is ingredients and the process to the end product.
Dude, I like your style.
There in lies the other problem if you already don’t know what it is… You most likely never will. It is in dang near every lager produced outside of the US. As described earlier, you don’t even have to drink it to know, just a whiff. I have never even been to Germany, so my “taste perception” can’t be influenced.
Just something to think about. If not sharing what you’ve learned because it might mislead someone is the thought process, is just saying Wrong better? A whole bunch of us spend a lot of time on brewing and share pretty much everything along the way. Some of it is wrong. Its an ongoing process.